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Resolved HC Suggestion/Problem

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DistinctMadness

Mafia Overseer 2.0
Greenie
Nov 2, 2013
664
262
The only thing I don't like here is Humungous Fungus, no offense to halex but it's too way too much of a troll.
Well Fungus should definently stay, but i could see switching construtction with fugus could be a good idea
 

yeroc424

Scrum Master
Op
Oct 26, 2013
630
498
Unfortunately, Ghidora Manor has a few bugs yet. In its current state, it wouldn't be suitable for HC, but maybe we could come up with a fix if we want it there.
 

Boske

New Fish
Mod
May 12, 2014
13
15
I like the fact that you can eliminate one of the things you don't like in that layout.
I don't know the mazes themselves, but could it be possible to speedrun through tthe maze/puzzle path if you have a tutorial?
That seems like it would be a problem....

Of all those maps, i only did aquarium and jigga's (were about the last ones when i did hc)
I fondly remember hatter's lava maze and sky parkour (but that was before sprinting). What happened to those maps?

I'm looking forward to coming back to the server and trying some of the maps again ^^.
I'll probably be on again tomorrow since i can change my name back and I'll be "working" from home :D
 

rmanimal

Unidentified Quipping Outsider
Op
Board
Jan 19, 2015
549
464
Here's what I see from everyone at all sides:
1. The idea to have some of the good looking ffa's and the ffa+'s. I can easily see why this is a good idea, as you can plan what courses are cycling in/out of the rotations. Especially Distinct's point about making paths with 2 types of maps, it's an awesome idea.
-You can easily keep track of what maps are where the are in the HC.
-You don't have to have excellence in everything, but you do have to be good in some areas
-Doesn't stem far off the HC system now, so not much extra work is needed
The only things I dislike are the difficulties of the maps, how long they've been in FFA and FFA+, and the length of the HC itself
-Right off the bat, I see most of the maps are on the easier side of the rank they are. I'm not complaining, but most of these tend to be on the easier side of their respective ranks (The only exception being Shri Tra Savern, which seems like HC in itself)
-These maps have been in FFA and + for long enough that Blues and whites with tons of free time have done them (Ghidora's Manor, Tower Prowl, etc.)
-This can easily be changed, but the HC length seems a bit short. I thing the 10 maps (3 set, 4 path, 3 set) system is better
2. Sticking to the way it is now. I'd admit, when I took the CIV(Civilisation path for new blues), none of the maps seemed overly difficult (especially after raging a few times on Funky Town for failing the final bit twice in a row). I've been up to #7, and from the looks of it, the system it is now seems perfect, so I'm sticking to this side (Just my personal opinion though)
3. To tweak the system slightly, but not divert too far from what it is already is. Specifically statements like "Less parkour in general","HC beginning slightly easier, green/yellow maps", etc. I can easily agree, the start of HC seemed abrupt, with hell (Aquarium) as HC-2 seemed way too early. I can't say I disagree with modifying it a little bit, it's that nothing currently in HC is too difficult or long for now. You could argue aquarium seemed like a red difficulty map, but with enough patience, anyone can do it.
4. Have self-writing maps. I understand the concept, but in the end, if I tried the map multiple times, I'd become super confused with the thing entirely. It's not I see it as a bad idea, I'd just say that lots of confusion is going to happen (Let's take Iron Door for example; I was so lost half the time because 75% of the time I'd end up in a different puzzle.)

(Sorry for making the longest post ever and sounding like a pr*ck)

Here's my final note: It takes persistence, skill and anger management, but anyone can do all of zero's maps. Particularly to blues in HC, I'd like to tell you this:
-It took me 4 months of HC just to get to aquarium for the first time (pixel parkour is the longest map purely about ladders I've ever seen), which... I almost instantly raged at
-Takes me another 2 months with World Tour
-Taken me 19-20 months to do aquarium. 790th time's the charm!
-I'm still currently doing HC right now, which adds another 3 months to the count.
It's taken me 29 months as being blue to do HC so far. But in all that time, I never told myself "I'll never do this". This phrase stick to you~

Never give up
 

DistinctMadness

Mafia Overseer 2.0
Greenie
Nov 2, 2013
664
262
@Boske
Firstly, maps like the iron door and cannot be shown through a simple guide, because its randomized every time you go through it.
Sra is a map where you do need some skill in order to pass through as well, so even if you had a guide, it wouldn't guarantee you make it through
That all being said, ideally you wouldn't even get the chance to have a guide because either
A.) There are no YouTube videos on it
B.) The person you are doing it with also has not done it and so you have equal experience in the map

@yeroc424
Oh... Well when i played it it looked find, but i guess that would make it not suitable. I'll try to find a replacement in the meantime.

@rmanimal
Originally my plan had 2 more maps in it:
The Congo - which i took out for having too many checkpoints
and
Monster Mash - which i took out for being "too easy" as well as what aj said "Me and the bros just kinda banged it out in 2 days." Or something like that

Most of the maps are actually fairly difficult. I chose construction because it is such a long parkour map, that many people quit before they are able to finish it.
Tower Prowel is such a huge maze that the same thing happens

Personally I think the current system is too heavy on the skill side of the system. World Tour, the very first hc, is the reason why like 20 blues I've talked to have quit hc. THE FIRST MAP! That shouldn't be happening!

Self Rewriting mazes are not technically fully possible. You can make a maze change as you go through it, but never to the extent of randomization (at least with scriptblocks), because you have to pre-code the sections that change, and so if someone just finds all the places that the map changes, then they can map the map out with its changes. Or so i thought...

Side note: I switched construction and fungus, and left space for another map to be added in-front of construction
 
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Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
To respond to your comment on the maze/puzzle path in Dis' proposition: yes, walkthroughs are always a big concern with mazes and puzzles. That is why I was glad to see sra in that path. While it is my map, my focus there with regards tO the topic of walkthroughs is the forced-path branching. Because its design, it would be very difficult for any one person to make a complete walkthrough for it. Even if they did, a player would have a difficult time finding the parts for each section their journey takes them through. Additionally, the time that such a walkthrough would take means that either a section will change (even though I have said it is finished, it really isn't XD)or the walkthrough will be found before it has much use.


Edit: @DistinctMadness just wait for my puzzle map, you will see that it does have a self rewriting part. Almost said two, but one of them has a static solution pattern despite the randomized pieces. I could make the current part I am building self rewriting, but the area is already redstone heavy and the work to do that alone would double the redstone.
 
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chunkyboy12

Peon
Greenie
May 4, 2014
135
10
Just to put an opinion out from one of the "newer" greens, I actually think HC isn't too bad the way it is. One of my only suggestions is, like Distinct said, to start off easier and get harder. I think World Tour is a bit too difficult for HC1. Changing it to something easier would lead to far less rage quits I'm sure. I do think HC is a bit parkour heavy, but I love parkour so I'm a bit biased on that aspect. Hopefully you admins can work it out!
 
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CreepaShadowz

Maze Connoisseur
Mod
Apr 21, 2014
1,169
544
I think Elusion should still be required for all players and stay in HC9 as it is a nice map to finish up with. Someone should look into fixing the Redstone so it can be played to it's full.
 

Zatharel

Good Little Chemist Boy
Op
Board
Nov 5, 2013
1,867
1,219
I think Elusion should still be required for all players and stay in HC9 as it is a nice map to finish up with. Someone should look into fixing the Redstone so it can be played to it's full.
Elusion is still in hardcore, isn't it? I'm not sure we're referring to the same redstone, but the thing a few blues were complaining about isn't broken, it's just very old and hard to beat redstone.
 

Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
I can look into it this evening if someone tells me what and where it is...it could benefit from modernization.

We should try to avoid leaving maps in rotation for too long, no matter how good they are for HC. Maybe we should discuss a maximum number of turns in rotation before it is required to be switched out?
 

rickyboy320

Penguin Master
Op
Board
Nov 18, 2013
1,990
1,207
I can look into it this evening if someone tells me what and where it is...it could benefit from modernization.

We should try to avoid leaving maps in rotation for too long, no matter how good they are for HC. Maybe we should discuss a maximum number of turns in rotation before it is required to be switched out?
The first part of Elusion Mimic is stuck open, this isn't major restone, but I'm fairly sure this is just working fine and normally in the actual one. I think something may be copied over wrongly or something.

There's one part which is rather confusing, but that also works fine. I'm fairly sure the whole map works fine.
 

rmanimal

Unidentified Quipping Outsider
Op
Board
Jan 19, 2015
549
464
Here's something I'd like to point out with how it currently is:
I see no difference in difficulty reduction
From the maps distinct has currently selected, none seem to be easier than before, in fact, you've just map HC more difficult, which is against the idea of the people who made the post in the first place.
Yes, this is from personal experience, but no matter if Sra is in HC, there's no way I'll stay in it for long, and putting a RED map in seems a bit extreme, even though a yellow map (the iron door) is before it. I just believe no one would have much patience in doing it, considering the other two options seem slightly easier.
The puzzle map Ghidora's manor is slightly broken atm, as the requirement to get in the manor right now is 1 of any item of choice. (Although the plan of the path looks great)
Humongous Fungus is a super troll map, along with snowstorm being incredibly confusing with barely being able to see the walls.
Another small problem is aquarium. With it so early in rotation, no one is going to be prepared from having a nice stroll in Construction to killer death aquarium brings, and like 99% of anyone that passes HC says: "HC2 (aquarium) was the hardest of all"

(By the way, no one better remove Aquarium or Jiga's Claymaze. The pain aquarium was is indefinite, so I don't want to see an easy map replace that. Jiga's sounds great for the final map as well.
 

DistinctMadness

Mafia Overseer 2.0
Greenie
Nov 2, 2013
664
262
@rmanimal Sra? Pretty sure is not a red... I think you're thinking of Shri Tra Savern, which indeed is a red, but sra I think is an orange. Regardless the mazes and parkours were picked not off the rating they received but the difficulty I saw fit.

End of the world: Confusing parkour map, that a while to find the right path but once its found its not THAT hard to do, plus its the first one after the checkpoint which makes it a bit easier to do.

Tower Parkour: I kept this one because I had it when I was getting green and really REALLY loved the parkour on the map, but I could see it being a bit too hard for HC all the same.

Fungus: While yes it is a bit trolly, it requires you to think outside the box, so perhaps it might actually be better in the puzzle/parkour category, but I put it in the maze because it has a legit maze at the end

Aquarium: I could indeed but this at the end, but that would require me to find a new map for HC2 which TBH I have no clue what that would be. I personally think aquarium isn't that hard, just really long. Then again, I shouldn't be the almighty judge here.
I'll look into switching its placement in the system

Ghidora: It's a FANTASTIC map, but I did not know it was broken, so yea...

Construction: Not that hard of a map, just super duper long :p

I'm also up for switching out sky parkour as the loopback map, but again I don't know what to put into its place...

@Creeper2685 If you can find a replacement for Elusion in the Puzzle/Parkour path, I'm all ears.

Side note: This is actually a lot easier of an HC for most people because most people only suck at one type of map, and so they can't complete hc because of that. In the version I just created, I've allowed you to have minimal problems with that specific type of map that you suck at the most.

EDIT: UPDATED THE SPREADSHEET
 
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MeisterXehanort

The best user.
Greenie
Oct 27, 2013
1,039
462
Tbh I did Ghidora the intended way because I liked the first part.

But damn I sitll haven't figured out how to get the last answer correct without guessing (which is what I did)
 

Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
Yes, Sra is currently orange because each section of it is "short": http://forums.minr.org/xz-articles/sra.9/

For any maps that are redstone broken, let me know what is broken and the coordinates and I will look into it when I log in to work on my puzzle map.

The only thing difficult with aquarium imho is drowning. I have a hard time mapping (physical or mental) when I have to keep my avatar from running out of air.
 

Zatharel

Good Little Chemist Boy
Op
Board
Nov 5, 2013
1,867
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@rmanimal
I don't get it. Whoever said hardcore needs to be easier? The only thing said was that it needs to be in increasing difficulty (hc1 < hc2 < hc3 etc), but that doesn't mean it should be all easy maps. Distinct never mentioned a red map, I don't know what you're referring to.
 

CreepaShadowz

Maze Connoisseur
Mod
Apr 21, 2014
1,169
544
@Srentiln I remember quite a bit that in Elusion, you had to divert from the main path a bit, like travelling through the Redstone to get from place to place. It would be interesting if someone was to "restore" it so you wouldn't have to do such things and you could play it as it was meant to.

@rmanimal Snowstorm isn't terribly difficult, I beat it in under an hour with 3 committed people. (Only me and one other finished though :( )
 

bstrey

Bread
Op
Oct 29, 2013
255
208
@rmanimal
I don't get it. Whoever said hardcore needs to be easier? The only thing said was that it needs to be in increasing difficulty (hc1 < hc2 < hc3 etc), but that doesn't mean it should be all easy maps. Distinct never mentioned a red map, I don't know what you're referring to.
A few people have argued that it should be easier, as you would know if you had read the entire thread. ;)
 

Zatharel

Good Little Chemist Boy
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Nov 5, 2013
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A few people have argued that it should be easier, as you would know if you had read the entire thread. ;)
Yet somehow I fail to find that funny, thank you for acting smart and making an idiot out of me, I appreciate it very much.
Maybe in your own words I should tell you that I (among others) have said multiple times that only blues have said that, which again I say were attempts to make it easier for themselves, not to make it better, hence why I don't count those as valid arguments. But hey, you would know that if you read the entire thread, right? ;)
 

bstrey

Bread
Op
Oct 29, 2013
255
208
I believe that HC should be easier, and even made a post about it.

Anyway, don't take everything as a personal attack you guys. I didn't mean it that way. :) This should be a productive exchange of ideas.
 
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