Announce Difficult Green+ Map Completions

[LanIsGone]

Hey all,

I was playing Fantasy Islands today when I thought how disappointing it would be if you were not able to see your completion be publicly announced for such a difficult map such as this if you did not get a top 3 time. The majority of the Green+ maps are very difficult (Woodwork, Fantasy Islands, Ultra Turning Point, HFT), and not having a public completion can make players feel less accomplished. The completions could be colored red (similarly to how challenges are, no matter if it's worth 60 pts or 750). Please let me know if you guys think this is a good idea.

Thank you for considering.

 

[UltraOmiga]

If they are maps that are green+ only, what happens when it announces that someone beat it is people are going to say, "I can't join that map," or, "Why can't I play it," which essentially will just make all the people who aren't greens feel bad that they can't play it. If you choose to play a map that is not in FFA due to difficulty, that shouldn't be announced to whole server because it will just make people feel bad. This isn't a baseless thought either, because myself, and plenty of others have seen it in chat all the time from whities and blues almost those exact phrases. The fact is, there isn't a reason to do this that doesn't have a net negative result. That's not to say they are bad maps, but why make people feel bad because they aren't green and can't play them. I am also a proponent of not announcing valley map or mimic map times for the same reason. There just is no point to it and it just will lead to people who aren't green feeling bad.

 

[LanIsGone]

If they are maps that are green+ only, what happens when it announces that someone beat it is people are going to say, "I can't join that map," or, "Why can't I play it," which essentially will just make all the people who aren't greens feel bad that they can't play it. If you choose to play a map that is not in FFA due to difficulty, that shouldn't be announced to whole server because it will just make people feel bad. This isn't a baseless thought either, because myself, and plenty of others have seen it in chat all the time from whities and blues almost those exact phrases. The fact is, there isn't a reason to do this that doesn't have a net negative result. That's not to say they are bad maps, but why make people feel bad because they aren't green and can't play them. I am also a proponent of not announcing valley map or mimic map times for the same reason. There just is no point to it and it just will lead to people who aren't green feeling bad.

But so are Odyssey and Path or Heroes. They are locked behind point thresholds or a #1 time on a weekly, which most newer players are unlikely to achieve. Every single mimic challenge is also publicly announced, yet they're green+. Most hard+ challenges are blue+. I do not see why difficult maps intended for greens and above, such as Woodwork and HFT, could not be announced as well. It would more in turn positively affect green players, as they complete the most challenging and daunting maps on our server.

Several perks have been barred from non-greenies, such as building, calling, mimic, delta, and having an impactful role on map changes and the community in general. The valley, specifically the maps that were intended to be green+, are no different.

 

[_dx_]

It's a tough one because you'd want to give credit to Greens who have truly done really tough maps, but also making sure that the divide between whites, blues, and greens doesn't blow out of proportion. Personally, I think you two are both in the right as you've got different intentions. Perhaps it's worth looking into maybe prioritising announcing Green+ maps that are Green+ because of their sheer difficulty and maybe getting rid of the announcements for the other valley maps that do nothing other than show what the worst of map quality could look like. Green+ map completions deserve some merit, whereas announcements for other valley map times truly don't engage with the majority of the Minr community. This could be because they are either inaccessible for most (like Ultra said), or are of such poor quality that it doesn't really hold any particular value.

That being said, I think mimic map times, blue+ challenges, Odyssey, and Path of Heroes should still be announced because they are based off of some brilliantly made maps or brilliantly designed challenges, and they do actually capture the attention of a much wider player base.

 

[LanIsGone]

It's a tough one because you'd want to give credit to Greens who have truly done really tough maps, but also making sure that the divide between whites, blues, and greens doesn't blow out of proportion. Personally, I think you two are both in the right as you've got different intentions. Perhaps it's worth looking into maybe prioritising announcing Green+ maps that are Green+ because of their sheer difficulty and maybe getting rid of the announcements for the other valley maps that do nothing other than show what the worst of map quality could look like. Green+ map completions deserve some merit, whereas announcements for other valley map times truly don't engage with the majority of the Minr community. This could be because they are either inaccessible for most (like Ultra said), or are of such poor quality that it doesn't really hold any particular value.

That being said, I think mimic map times, blue+ challenges, Odyssey, and Path of Heroes should still be announced because they are based off of some brilliantly made maps or brilliantly designed challenges, and they do actually capture the attention of a much wider player base.

I agree with the poor valley maps not being announced, it was just the maps that would be deemed red/black if they were in ffa that aren't necessarily poor in quality

 

[UltraOmiga]

I agree with the poor valley maps not being announced, it was just the maps that would be deemed red/black if they were in ffa that aren't necessarily poor in quality

Ok so let’s address all of this.

1.Odyssey and PoH are accessible to blues and whities. They are fully capable of getting the number 1 time or 1000 points, and the reason I didn’t include is because by my own logic, most people on the server would feel bad about not being able to do them, but because they are challenges open to anyone who meets the specific requirements, of course they should be announced.

2. There is always one of two reasons those maps are only green+ and have homes in the valley. They are either too hard, or meme maps. Regardless, (most) are poor in quality because they are too hard and unbalanced or just memes. Some of those maps have good merits behind them, but that doesn’t make them deserving of an announcement of winning.
3. Regardless of all of that, you are completely disregarding the majority of the people on the server by wanting this, because while getting 1000 points or first on a weekly are attainable goals to most, Hardcore isn’t for a lot of people, and to dangle maps that aren’t even up to the standard of FFA in front of the majority of players (being blues and whities) is just inconsiderate and unkind. Again Odyssey is perfectly attainable because it’s playing maps with no stipulations and whatever maps you choose to get to 1000, and weeklies often have nobody doing them, but hardcore has stipulations and force people to play map types that are completely outside their scope of ability. By announcing that you beat a map that isn’t even up to the standard of FFA, either because of difficulty or general meme-ness, it’s unkind and inconsiderate.

Edited with the most in parentheses to more accurately display my thoughts, I apologize for the confusion.

 

[LanIsGone]

Ok so let’s address all of this.

1.Odyssey and PoH are accessible to blues and whities. They are fully capable of getting the number 1 time or 1000 points, and the reason I didn’t include is because by my own logic, most people on the server would feel bad about not being able to do them, but because they are challenges open to anyone who meets the specific requirements, of course they should be announced.

2. There is always one of two reasons those maps are only green+ and have homes in the valley. They are either too hard, or meme maps. Regardless, they are poor in quality because they are too hard and unbalanced or just memes. Some of those maps have good merits behind them, but that doesn’t make them deserving of an announcement of winning.
3. Regardless of all of that, you are completely disregarding the majority of the people on the server by wanting this, because while getting 1000 points or first on a weekly are attainable goals to most, Hardcore isn’t for a lot of people, and to dangle maps that aren’t even up to the standard of FFA in front of the majority of players (being blues and whities) is just inconsiderate and unkind. Again Odyssey is perfectly attainable because it’s playing maps with no stipulations and whatever maps you choose to get to 1000, and weeklies often have nobody doing them, but hardcore has stipulations and force people to play map types that are completely outside their scope of ability. By announcing that you beat a map that isn’t even up to the standard of FFA, either because of difficulty or general meme-ness, it’s unkind and inconsiderate.

Not sure why you believe it would be so hurtful to others if players completed difficult valley maps and it was announced, but believe what you want. The top 3 times on green+ maps always get announced anyways, wouldn't that be "unkind and inconsiderate" towards the players that cannot play those maps then as well? And for the record, there's always about three people who run the weekly on a moderate pace, so if you're new to the server and want to do poh (hell, you wouldn't even know any of the maps in them, it would be extremely difficult to get #1 if there's players who have done the maps several times before). Valley maps don't award players any points or give them any special reward for completing them, what's the problem with announcing the red/black difficulty maps, the same as how mimics are announced?

If they want to do the maps in the valley, then they need to beat HC. It is just a fun idea, in my opinion, to add a one-line announcement for these difficult maps (Woodwork, HFT, Buffed E, Ultra Turning Point, OwO, Fantasy Islands). I don't see how announcing completions would further harm our community.

 

[Bahnarli]

Ok so let’s address all of this.

1.Odyssey and PoH are accessible to blues and whities. They are fully capable of getting the number 1 time or 1000 points, and the reason I didn’t include is because by my own logic, most people on the server would feel bad about not being able to do them, but because they are challenges open to anyone who meets the specific requirements, of course they should be announced.

2. There is always one of two reasons those maps are only green+ and have homes in the valley. They are either too hard, or meme maps. Regardless, they are poor in quality because they are too hard and unbalanced or just memes. Some of those maps have good merits behind them, but that doesn’t make them deserving of an announcement of winning.
3. Regardless of all of that, you are completely disregarding the majority of the people on the server by wanting this, because while getting 1000 points or first on a weekly are attainable goals to most, Hardcore isn’t for a lot of people, and to dangle maps that aren’t even up to the standard of FFA in front of the majority of players (being blues and whities) is just inconsiderate and unkind. Again Odyssey is perfectly attainable because it’s playing maps with no stipulations and whatever maps you choose to get to 1000, and weeklies often have nobody doing them, but hardcore has stipulations and force people to play map types that are completely outside their scope of ability. By announcing that you beat a map that isn’t even up to the standard of FFA, either because of difficulty or general meme-ness, it’s unkind and inconsiderate.

I wholeheartedly agree with dx's post here and his conclusions, but I want to respond to each of your points.
1. I think we are all in agreement about Odyssey and PoH, not much to talk about here.
2. I dislike that you describe maps being too hard as of poor quality and being unbalanced. That is not necessarily true at all, which I think is clearly proven by fantasy islands, which I think is a high quality map that was aiming for a different audience than most of minr's players, making it too difficult in its current state to be in ffa. Because I think there are some valley maps that actually have value, and are not all poor in quality, I agree with all of what dx suggested, which would be to note those maps and announce their completions. I think we all agree that any player beating buffed E, 16 jumps, or fantasy islands is an impressive achievement.
3. I really disagree here. You claim that odyssey is perfectly attainable, but that green isn't. The whole point of green is that any player dedicated enough to the server can, with enough effort, get green. Also no way HC is less attainable than odyssey. Besides that, I don't see anything wrong with having green only things announced to the server. I actually think its a good incentive. Remember that HC is available to everyone, it's not like we're the rich flaunting our wealth, almost any player can join us with enough time and effort, and so I don't understand this idea that green+ things should be entirely shielded from the whole community. Yes, there is no point in having green+ things like map reviews and such in front of the whole community, but celebratory achievements are things to be shared, and I really do think that the hard green+ map completions are noteworthy achievements.

 

[UltraOmiga]

I want to point out that I very specifically tried to not say that they were bad because as you pointed out and as I have said many times myself, there are green+ maps that are good. It’s that they aren’t at the standard of FFA due to their difficulty.

 

[UltraOmiga]

I’m not here to argue the merits of the maps, and at the end of the day it isn’t up to me, but I’m just thinking about how it effects everyone, not just green+s.

 

[Pieceofcheese87]

I'd personally be okay with adding announcements on completions of the harder valley maps, but they need to be treated on a case by case basis instead of as a general rule.

 

[ezzaezza]

I might throw my two cents in here.

1. I think announcing completions of valley maps is not really needed, as they’re normally not optimised and nobody really runs valley maps.

2. Maps in valley that are green+ are not always bad and super unbalanced. Take FYI for example, it’s not unbalanced it’s just too difficult for the Minr community. I think it is unfair of you (ultra) to make the statement that they are always “poor in quality because they are too hard and unbalanced or just memes”. This is insanely untrue. FYI is a good map, it’s just too hard. Woodwork is a good map, it’s just too hard. HFT? Again, a good map but just too hard. I think you calling them bad is quite disrespectful to the creators, whether you intended it to be or not.

3. I agree with piece that the maps must be looked at on a case to case basis, as some green+ maps are not of a high enough standard for completions and/or times to be announced.

4. The argument of “but whites and blues can get 1000 points to odyssey, but can’t do hardcore” seems silly to me. If these ranks obtain 1000 points they’d need to be completing mass amounts of maps, from white difficulty all the way to black. This means they’re easily capable of beating hardcore.

5. I don’t think whites and blues will be offended that they cannot try insanely difficult maps. Most blues and whites would not be able to complete these insane maps either (with a few exceptions). There are restrictions amongst every rank, having maps restricted because they’re in the valley is not going to tear our community apart. If anything it’s actually another motivation point for blues to beat hardcore, so they can see what we’re talking about.

Overall I see everyone’s points, and think they’re all valid. However personally I think adding public announcements for certain green+ maps would be beneficial, as the greens+ that complete the maps will have a further sense of fulfilment and recognition for beating the maps.

 

[Alphaesia]

Announcing completions would have to be all-or-nothing.

Personally I don't think these green+ maps should really be thought of as "true" maps, as they don't meet our map-making standards. They may be fine enough for those who want the extra challenge, but I don't think we should be promoting them (or encouraging them to be made).

 

[UltraOmiga]

Edited because of Bahnarli’s clarification

 

[UltraOmiga]

I also want to add that I didn’t even see that ezza directly called me out before I made that last post, but thanks for that.

 

[Bahnarli]

Ultra, we were literally quoting you. "Regardless, they are poor in quality because they are too hard and unbalanced or just memes." -UltraOmiga

 

[AverageIPA]

I think it could be semi-ok if Green+ maps that are absurdly difficult could pop up in chat.

I would see this being a smallish list;

16 jumps
The long corridor
Fantasy Islands
Happy Fun Time Tower of Vertical Ascension and Grandure
Woodwork
OwO

If I’m missing any please feel free to comment them.

I see a lot of valid points in threads above. This is definitely a good discussion.

 

[UltraOmiga]

Ultra, we were literally quoting you. "Regardless, they are poor in quality because they are too hard and unbalanced or just memes." -UltraOmiga

And unbalanced or just memes are the key words here because any map, regardless of where it is, is poor in quality if it is too hard and unbalanced. That’s why board reviews and works to see that fixed and balanced. Literally my map was too hard and unbalanced so I have to fix it. I never said that every map that is green+ is too hard and unbalanced however.

 

[Bahnarli]

2. There is always one of two reasons those maps are only green+ and have homes in the valley. They are either too hard, or meme maps. Regardless, they are poor in quality because they are too hard and unbalanced or just memes. Some of those maps have good merits behind them, but that doesn’t make them deserving of an announcement of winning.

You literally say exactly that right here. That every map thats green+ is poor quality because its too hard and unbalanced or a meme map. What.

 

[UltraOmiga]

After talking to Bahn and him explaining what I was misreading, I have edited the original post to be more clear to the point I was trying to make. I am sorry for the confusion and thank you for bearing with me. And I have edited most of my posts to better reflect this. Again I’m extremely sorry, please dm for further clarification if you want/need it.