Discussion: On Speedrunning

[facecat1]

Ideally board does find them, but I would not want them to have to check the entirety of maps for the existence of yeroc% (someone on Board would have to say how doable this is time management wise). I can imagine new map creators easily forget / not know about yeroc%, so perhaps the large majority of them can be avoided by asking if they checked their map for yeroc% in the map submission form.

To be fair, I think board does usually find and prevent yeroc%s nowadays, and the concern is mostly for older maps. Not every board member will find them every cycle but I think that's fine as long as they're all caught before a map is published into FFA, because obviously some people have more experience finding those and checking for the typical conditions for them than others.

I also do agree with the sentiment that maybe heavy yeroc% prevention isn't that necessary if they're explicitly disallowed, it's easy enough to tell when they're used and it can be enforced like any other exploit that we can't prevent.

 

[natcrackers]

Ideally board does find them, but I would not want them to have to check the entirety of maps for the existence of yeroc% (someone on Board would have to say how doable this is time management wise). I can imagine new map creators easily forget / not know about yeroc%, so perhaps the large majority of them can be avoided by asking if they checked their map for yeroc% in the map submission form.

Agreed with the latter part, it could probably be a checklist during map submission explaining what exactly it is, where it can exist, and how a mapmaker can prevent this (thru maybe a compiled guide on the ways to patch a yeroc). I kinda disagree that it is not necessarily Board’s part: it IS kinda their part as people who thoroughly plays through the map, assesses it, and approves it. That’s why I mentioned it should be maybe a checklist on their part or it should be made known to them how or what to check (even JUST the basics aka when items get given or theres a delay tp). It could probably be an extra process in the end with the creator if it is in a hard or long map (aka so they can have permission from mapmaker to tp and check and not have to replay). Especially if rules will be much clearer, then it becomes part of “ffa standard” for a map to not be yeroc%able.

Perhaps not related to this thread, but we could add something like /rules which links to our rules.

The book in-game is fine, but the command could just link to a constantly updated and masterpost on every rule in the server (i.e. with rules sections on different aspects of the server). Yeah sorry if it’s directly not related to this thread, but I think it still boils down on making very clear and easily accessible rules to EVERY RANK.

and that we can perhaps include some notification in chat if people join a map that has been released in the last 24 hours..

I honestly like this idea of having a big warning chat message when players join to notify them it’s a new map and perhaps a short rule on whatever is going to be implemented. How doable is this, ideally a server-side implementation rather than each mapmaker’s responsibility to script/implement?

I’m not sure if the latter is written down somewhere already?

I believe it already was. Either it was in the board masterpost or mapmaking one (?)

 

[egabbac]

I am of the opinion that our current rule of not answer sharing is fine, and that we can perhaps include some notification in chat if people join a map that has been released in the last 24 hours.

I think the issue is enforcement rather than the rule itself.

 

[ilovenons]

I kinda disagree that it is not necessarily Board’s part: it IS kinda their part as people who thoroughly plays through the map, assesses it, and approves it. That’s why I mentioned it should be maybe a checklist on their part or it should be made known to them how or what to check (even JUST the basics aka when items get given or theres a delay tp). It could probably be an extra process in the end with the creator if it is in a hard or long map (aka so they can have permission from mapmaker to tp and check and not have to replay). Especially if rules will be much clearer, then it becomes part of “ffa standard” for a map to not be yeroc%able.

I agree that it is Board's part, but that it is not something that they have to overly focus on. If a Board member decides to thoroughly check the map, then that's great. But, I also think it's fine if they just confirm at least one yeroc% has been covered. I agree with what facecat said as well.

I honestly like this idea of having a big warning chat message when players join to notify them it’s a new map and perhaps a short rule on whatever is going to be implemented. How doable is this, ideally a server-side implementation rather than each mapmaker’s responsibility to script/implement?

I think that it would either be something we do server-side (which does not seem too difficult, but I don't know), or something that the person publishing the map quickly adds on. I would prefer the former.

I think the issue is enforcement rather than the rule itself.

I'm guessing you mean the lack of enforcement of the day 1 speedrunning rule? Or have there been other issues?

 

[Lagbolo]

As a former speedrunner (mainly puzzles), I have dabbled in a little bit of setup "abusing" myself, and have searched for setups when the front page times looked too good to be true. I think setups should either be fully allowed, or fully patched and every time wiped with it just for consistency.

Case 1: setups are "banned", but WITHOUT patching them:
Someone could still setup the map and wait at end sign but claim it as a legitimate run (assuming previous top times are removed). I don't know if admins can detect this sort of cheating, but even if they could, it would be a big hassle to do it everytime a cheating accusation came up and it just wastes everyone's time.

Case 2: all setups are patched, but only select top times are removed:
First of all, I don't know who has the time to patch all 3000000 setup maps, but even if it was done, removing only a few times would be unfair (in my opinion). Many runs could very easily have setups in them, but due to poor mechanics it would show up as second or even third page and bypass the time wipes. For consistency it would just be better to remove every time and just give a completion, with a blank slate ready for new speedrun times.


Why I think setups should be allowed (unless the map creator says no and is willing to put in effort to patch it):
Finding the setup(s) is a skill in itself (arguably, don't hate me for saying this). Additionally, it doesn't skip any gameplay for the speedrunner (sometimes setting up puzzles means we have to do additional gameplay, even), and I have never seen anyone complain about having a first time experience ruined due to half the map already being setup (this may be because I'm a fairly new player). Additionally, some setups are very minimal and barely save any time (such as clicking a block for a chat prompt, resetting, and then up arrowing to skip actually needing to right click the block with the interact script) which I don't feel is worth patching.

Yerocs are not setups and should be patched immediately upon finding them. It's just so stupid when someone yerocs and waits at the end sign and claims it as a legitimate run (imo this is different to setting up a run because yeroc is a more serious form of "bug" abuse). Actually, while writing this I just remembered a yeroc in Wake in which if the player /kills during Day 0 and takes a while to hit the bed, they bypass the yeroc prevention and skip the day 0 cutscene which saves ~5s. I know for a fact most of the top times use this yeroc but I'm also fairly sure its unintentional, as it happens naturally when /killing on Day 0 due to bad movement.

When skips are patched, not all times using the skip are removed, which I feel is unfair. For example, Azure Cove is now unbeatable due to a few patches, but it's not clear who exactly used the skip in their run. But I feel like wiping select times would be unfair, and here's why.
I'm sure someone like pooma or solawr could easily beat my time (which used skips) while taking the map creator's intended route. If their times are removed but mine is not due to it not being on front page, that would feel unfair as now I would have a fraudulent run that was only kept because my mechanics weren't good enough to get me on front page. So when map creators patch a skip, I believe that all times should be wiped, just like if a setup was patched.

Another issue is skip gatekeeping. I know I am a gatekeeper when someone like seano asks me for a skip, but is it really different from when I ask someone for a maze route (or even any route for this matter) and they say "um I don't have it" while they clearly do? I understand that skips aren't the same as maze routes, but I think it would be nice if they were treated the same as far as speedrunning is concerned.
Some might make the argument that "a maze route is the hard work of someone who mapped it, so they aren't obliged to share it", but I think the same applies for skips. I have spent hours searching and strat finding skips with other people so surely that counts for hard work as well. Obviously if the map creator or an admin asked me for the skip I wouldn't gatekeep, but otherwise, I don't see the need to share them.

As far as what skips should be allowed, I know of the existence of a few skips that skip totally different parts of the same map (possibly up to 30%-50%) but can't be used together in the same run because they overlap, and the difficulty of these skips are pretty hard. I firmly believe that these skips should be allowed just because they are so hard to pull off, so the difficulty:timesave ratio is reasonable. I understand that this is a totally subjective matter, and many other people may disagree, but that's the point of this discussion, isn't it?

Going back to my skip gatekeeping thought, I also feel like any skip should have at least two active players knowing about it. It's really annoying when it's so obvious a skip has been used, but the people who used the skip are inactive and the skip is almost impossible to find so the time is basically unbeatable. I might be arguing with myself here, but it's just nice knowing that there's at least someone out there who can show (and report if needed) the skip to another speedrunner looking for the timesave.

^ don't mind that, it's not helpful to this discussion in any way

I think this is a pretty disorganized post and I'm sorry for that, but I am currently in the most boring physics lecture of my life and just wanted something else to do while half listening to the professor. Feel free to ask me to elaborate on any points that I have made, and I am totally willing to accept that I may be wrong in some areas. Also, if anything I said breaks a rule, please clearly state it to avoid any further confusion for both me and other players who might be in the same boat.

As the wise unc SeanoooOOOOOOOOOOO said, there are only two routes to a map: the intended route, and the map creator's longcut.

 

[pingpong]

Another issue is skip gatekeeping. I know I am a gatekeeper when someone like seano asks me for a skip, but is it really different from when I ask someone for a maze route (or even any route for this matter) and they say "um I don't have it" while they clearly do? I understand that skips aren't the same as maze routes, but I think it would be nice if they were treated the same as far as speedrunning is concerned.
Some might make the argument that "a maze route is the hard work of someone who mapped it, so they aren't obliged to share it", but I think the same applies for skips. I have spent hours searching and strat finding skips with other people so surely that counts for hard work as well. Obviously if the map creator or an admin asked me for the skip I wouldn't gatekeep, but otherwise, I don't see the need to share them.

I'm not sure what this issue is you're bringing up here? Gatekeeping isn't really something inherently against the rules or not, it's sort of just a choice people can make or not make. Like I don't understand what you are meaning when you want skips to be treated the same way as maze routes in this context. Are you feeling obliged to share skips outside of like just reporting them? Also what is it that makes it clear when someone is gatekeeping and when someone doesn't know the route?

Going back to my skip gatekeeping thought, I also feel like any skip should have at least two active players knowing about it. It's really annoying when it's so obvious a skip has been used, but the people who used the skip are inactive and the skip is almost impossible to find so the time is basically unbeatable. I might be arguing with myself here, but it's just nice knowing that there's at least someone out there who can show (and report if needed) the skip to another speedrunner looking for the timesave.

So now you believe that people should have to show you the results of their hardwork? I am really confused about your gatekeeping discussion as in this case this player, inactive or not, has a skip as a result of hard work and should therefore not be obliged to share it.

As the wise unc SeanoooOOOOOOOOOOO said, there are only two routes to a map: the intended route, and the map creator's longcut.

oh alright

 

[Lagbolo]

I'm not sure what this issue is you're bringing up here? Gatekeeping isn't really something inherently against the rules or not, it's sort of just a choice people can make or not make. Like I don't understand what you are meaning when you want skips to be treated the same way as maze routes in this context. Are you feeling obliged to share skips outside of like just reporting them? Also what is it that makes it clear when someone is gatekeeping and when someone doesn't know the route?

What makes it clear is when the person has a front page time on the map, usually top 3 or top 5 (surely you were ragebaiting with that question)

Skip gatekeeping was just a random thought I had in my head, maybe it was a little bit too much of a rant. You're correct in that it's not against the rules or anything, I'm just saying that I shouldn't be obliged to share skips (if they are allowed in a particular case). Skips are a gray area, so this is why I feel obliged to share them when someone asks for it, other wise I might be rule breaking...? I honestly have no idea since the "no skips" rule is never enforced at this point. Maybe what I'm asking for is more clarity on that specific rule, or more enforcement, so then I'll be able to treat a skip the same way I treat a maze route: no obligation to share with anyone, and no punishment if I choose to not share.

This is taken directly from the Minr wiki:

Definitions & Info:

• Skip: Any method that allows a player to avoid playing a portion of a map.
• Shortcut: Any method that allows the player to circumvent the original map creator's intended way of completing the map.
• Exploit / Glitch: Any method the player uses to circumvent the game's mechanics, including bringing foreign items into a map, or using commands that are not meant to be used in that map.

These terms are collectively referred to as a bypass.

• Any bypass of content should be reported when discovered.
  • Players should not use bypasses to gain top times on a map.
  • When bypasses are discovered, players should make a report on the forums or Discord as soon as possible.
    • Staff may punish players who deliberately hide bypasses.
• Rapidly connecting and disconnecting from the server to avoid damage/negative game-play consequences is considered an exploit.

So obviously a skip is a bypass as stated above, and bypasses are not allowed in a run. So why is it that nobody is punished for using skips in runs? Nothing against solawr, but his ace run is absolutely disgusting (I'm just using this as an example as there's probably a video in #botspam of the run, not targeted by any means), skipping like 50% of the map with some cross neups and a 5 block jump.

I feel like the "no skips" rule isn't enforced the same across all maps. How this relates to skip gatekeeping in my mind is: I don't want to show the map creator the skip because I want to use it in a run but obviously that's against the rules, as skips should be reported and NOT used in a run. So I show them and then the skip gets patched. But there are skips on other maps that don't get patched, and people (including me) use them which should result in punishment, but we don't get punished? I wouldn't have a problem with reporting skips if every other skip on the server was also reported, but since they aren't, I get annoyed (which is my problem, I understand) and don't feel like it's a good rule.

So now you believe that people should have to show you the results of their hardwork? I am really confused about your gatekeeping discussion as in this case this player, inactive or not, has a skip as a result of hard work and should therefore not be obliged to share it.

When you say not obliged to share it, that would be rule breaking, which is what my issue is with. My previous post was very poorly worded and I couldn't get the thoughts in my head to come out the same using English.

With the current rules, I don't see the issue of forcing people to show skips. Should they not be obliged to show them, as the rule states? I guess the rule implies report to an admin, but implications lead to different interpretations, which makes it not a very good rule.

The part of "two active people" was totally a random thought in my head, and honestly I could probably scrap that entire paragraph. In fact, I'll just go back and delete it because I don't feel it's really bringing anything useful to this discussion.


What I got from this discussion: the rule is not enforced enough; either punish players (like me) who use skips and remove all times with skips used, or remove the rule and allow skips to be used in runs, with no obligation to report them (and define in the rules the difference between a skip and a map escape or whatever else someone may have a problem with)

Thanks for responding to my post PPAP, your feedback and questions are always appreciated

 

[pingpong]

What makes it clear is when the person has a front page time on the map, usually top 3 or top 5 (surely you were ragebaiting with that question)

Oh right yes I can see how that would give the impression that they possess the route and no I was not ragebaiting with that question.

Skip gatekeeping was just a random thought I had in my head, maybe it was a little bit too much of a rant. You're correct in that it's not against the rules or anything, I'm just saying that I shouldn't be obliged to share skips (if they are allowed in a particular case). Skips are a gray area, so this is why I feel obliged to share them when someone asks for it, other wise I might be rule breaking...? I honestly have no idea since the "no skips" rule is never enforced at this point. Maybe what I'm asking for is more clarity on that specific rule, or more enforcement, so then I'll be able to treat a skip the same way I treat a maze route: no obligation to share with anyone, and no punishment if I choose to not share.

Many rules are not enforced and many "rules" aren't even explicit rules. I can understand how this can link back to the topic of gatekeeping or whatever so this only adds to a reason this entire discussion would be helpful in that it should hopefully lead to a greater sense of a common understanding of what people can and can't do.

So obviously a skip is a bypass as stated above, and bypasses are not allowed in a run. So why is it that nobody is punished for using skips in runs? Nothing against solawr, but his ace run is absolutely disgusting (I'm just using this as an example as there's probably a video in #botspam of the run, not targeted by any means), skipping like 50% of the map with some cross neups and a 5 block jump.

I couldn't say for sure why people are not punished more for skips but could be for multiple reasons. Maybe it is because there is a sense of that if someone was to report the use of a skip by someone else that wasn't them it means they have something against that person? such as you having to clarify here that you have nothing against solawr.

I feel like the "no skips" rule isn't enforced the same across all maps. How this relates to skip gatekeeping in my mind is: I don't want to show the map creator the skip because I want to use it in a run but obviously that's against the rules, as skips should be reported and NOT used in a run. So I show them and then the skip gets patched. But there are skips on other maps that don't get patched, and people (including me) use them which should result in punishment, but we don't get punished? I wouldn't have a problem with reporting skips if every other skip on the server was also reported, but since they aren't, I get annoyed (which is my problem, I understand) and don't feel like it's a good rule.

In my opinion, even in the current landscape, a map creator is someone who has a decent reason to have a "skip" shared with them . This is clearly shown by the fact that you showing the skip leads to it getting patched which likely means that whatever you showed them was something in their map that they don't want to have in their map and probably wouldn't have been in that map for you to even show them if they had know earlier. Once again the supposed rules in place are clearly not being enforced or just not working based on what you are outlining, further showing the issues at hand. I am aware that it is pretty well known alot of skips used by players but could it also potentially be that the parties able to enact punishments for using skips aren't as aware the extent of the use of them as someone like you might be and this is why people are not punished?