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About Speedrunning (Multiplayering, Setups, and Skips)

LomourKong

Split
Mod
Board
Aug 29, 2015
177
109
Recently, the rules have been enforced in regards to speedrunning. Times have been removed from maps that use setups or major shortcuts, including Birds of Paradise, Coke Can, and Brothers' Therapy. I'd like to discuss the rules in regards to these things, as I believe in their current enforcement it harms speedrunning.

Original shortcuts thread: https://forums.minr.org/threads/shortcut-definitions-and-discussion.2779/
This contains the definition of a shortcut and skip as we hold it currently.
Multiplayering refers to using more than the intended number of players to complete a map (with regards to speedrunning only here). This includes holding open doors for another player or completing tasks in advance (e.g. doing a puzzle while the other person gets there).
Setups are completing tasks in a map, then returning to the beginning to avoid having to do them in a run.


The current enforcement relies on the following justification:
(Please correct this if it is wrong so as to avoid misrepresentation.)
Using unintended strategies to complete a map in a faster time hurts the speedrun. By doing this, players that do not use these unintentional strategies are unable to achieve as fast a time, therefore defeating the purpose of the speedrun. Maps should be completed only in the way they were intended.

An example of this in action is the Birds of Paradise time. While players were previously able to skip doing ALL of the puzzles due to a bug, this meant speedrunners would not be able to complete the map legitimately as fast as possible and still expect to get a decent time. This takes the fun out of the execution of the map, as there would be no way for a legitimate run to compete with the top times.


My claim is this:
Finding and using unintentional methods of saving time, excluding those that reduce difficulty upon a first completion, should be allowed, so long as they are not removed or are otherwise impossible to beat. This means that setups or multiplayering would be allowed so long as all the participants have completed the map legitimately and the method is still possible. I don't think this takes the fun or the challenge out of a speedrun, it simply relies on other things. I personally find a lot of enjoyment in trying to figure out how to break maps in order to optimise a run, and did that quite a bit before it was enforced.

I think this is highlighted by the Brothers' Therapy run quite well. The run required many more people than the two the map was intended to be completed with. It was a group effort and we accomplished a time that shouldn't have been possible, made so by scouting out potential areas to save time using another player. Even though it was blatant multiplayering and the time was unbeatable without it, it was immensely fun to try and push the map to its limits.

Likewise, certain runs that require setup wouldn't really harm the run. Coke can in particular previously would require players to manually complete the final challenge at the end of run. Anyone who has played the map can attest to how annoying that is. By using a setup, players would avoid this inconvenient area and save time on a run. I don't think speedrunner would defend having to do that in every run.


I believe that the current enforcement of speedrunning rules hurts the fun of pushing the map to its limits, which is really what speedrunning is about. Speedrunners have to push themselves to be faster than everyone else, but in the past, also more creative. Many runs require players to think outside the box with how to save time, and taking away unintentional paths limits how far they can push those limits.

However, I think that both sides of this are valid, as the value of a legitimate run is also clear for those who simply wish to focus on skill and execution. Thus, I think the best course of action would be to separate a "Anything Goes" versus a "Glitch-less" type speedrun.


Having said this, this is all just my opinion, and I'd like to see the community's opinion on this:
Does the current enforcement of speedrunning rules reflect speedrunning as a whole?

Should multiplayering, setups, and skips be allowed? (For players who have already completed the map, with the intention of getting a better time, and without reducing the difficulty of the map for first-time players.)

Should speedruns be split into runs with these things and runs done as intended?
 

Jackus1

New Fish
Whitey
Aug 16, 2018
1
1
I can agree with your standpoint in that thinking outside of the box to discover setups and routes should be allowed. Despite not being the intended route by the creator of the course, I much more enjoy spending time finding these routes in order to optimize a map to its fullest. To me, this is truly speedrunning. All runners have access to using skips like the route on Birds of Paradise, all it requires is thinking outside the box and proper execution. Meanwhile, I don’t have a standpoint on “multiplayering” as: not all players are able to use another player, isn’t fair to a player who is single-handedly playing, etc. I feel that this way of playing a map could be taken either way by the community, but setting up parts of a map alone in my opinion does not compare to this. This is just how I feel about it and I’m open to seeing what the community has to offer when it comes to discussion on the topic. All in all, I want to see a map pushed to its absolute limit no matter who achieves this goal, because that’s what I think minecraft speedrunning is.
 

luckylukecraft

Actually not that lucky
Greenie
Board
Sep 28, 2014
131
112
All that I can say is that while there have been times where I did this on my own, I feel like having to set up different parts for a map or using multi-player strategies is not truly speedrunning. Speedrunning is completing maps the fastest, having the agility, stamina, determination and flexibility to do everything in a map in one go, NOT outsmarting other players by having others keep the door open for you after a room where you can insert e.g. a code.
 
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Reactions: Hex

Hex

Board Man
Op
Board
Jul 26, 2016
620
487
Will give a more fleshed out response later, but i definitely do take a hard no to multiplayering runs. Having to need other people (in the extreme cases four or more) to compete isn't something that I want out of our speedrunning community. Sure, the times get lower, but that's not based on skill, but based on having friends.
 

Ninja_Cat_

Well-Known Player
Greenie
Apr 13, 2017
191
170
I agree that finding and using skips/setups is part of speedrunning. Speedrunning is using creative methods (and skills) to beat a map as fast as possible. I don’t think it’s an unfair method of getting a fast time because any people could use skips. I don’t think using multiplayer tactics is a good speedrunning strategy. Speedrunning should be about doing a map as fast as you can yourself, not getting people to hold doors open for you.
 

DumbMutt

I like to break things.
Jul 30, 2018
68
26
Playing the maps as intended does make sense, I'm pretty sure that the map creators didn't want people getting 21 second runs on maps meant for longer runs.
 

rebplane

Boring Turtle
Op
Jan 5, 2014
317
187
As I did most of the time removing and setup patching, I guess I'm inclined to say something.

Multiplayering:
I am entirely against using other people for speedruns. The times become irritating to beat as you need to have people to do things for you. If you dont have people who can do so, it becomes an impossible time that relies less on the skill of the individual but rather if they have friends who can aid them. Multiplayering though has already been disallowed, and I don't see a revival in the future.

Setups:
I dont have anything against harmless setups, such as Retro Runner Pacman where you can type the code and run back before the pistons close.

Though when it becomes as major as birds of paradise, it's where I'm against these. Running to a door at the end of a map, skipping the puzzles and resulting in 20 seconds as opposed to 3 minute times is barely considered a map speedrun. Whereas in maps like minecorp, you still have to do the map and you're not neglecting a majority of the map.

Although I said I dont have a problem with times on maps like minecorp, I do have a problem with setups. To clarify, the problem lies with the actual map itself.

Quoting rick from that shortcut thread as he phrased it way better than I can:
The fact that a map can be preset often means that the map is inherently broken due to the fact that this means that when a player quits halfway, an other player could steal progress, effectively reducing difficulty of the map.
I'll use examples from maps that were recently setup-proofed.

The Coke Can: I've stumbled upon coke can more than once with the code either complete, or one color away from being complete. Whether or not the speedruns use a setup or not doesn't matter, it's the fact that someone can enter and have it easy, without having to enter the code.

Minr Golf: Same as the coke can - someone left their items in the holes and when I played the map, I got a free pass through some of them.

Anyways, my point is removing the times and patching setups for the maps that have already been done and may be done in the future were/are less about the speedruns times and more about map polishing. Maybe for non first time players it won't reset the map? Dont rlly have an opinion on the topic though.

As for splitting up the leaderboards, I think that would be too difficult to manage as there's no simple/clear divide between intended versus setup routes.
 
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