HC

[rmanimal]

Short Answer: It's unfair.
Long answer: Over the years, HC just seems to be more a "staple" than a good system at all.

1. It's made by people who've beaten versions too easy compared to nowadays. Greenies that have beaten the previous systems keep making it unnecessarily more difficult than it needs to be. The famous quote I've heard from quite a few greenies is: "I've gone though what you are right now", you're not. If you truly were, you would have to re-complete HC every iteration due to it becoming more difficult with every turn.

2. The reasons for the HC system still being there are crappy. The first is "an old tradition". What's better, having an old tradition or one that gets the server less deserted? The second is "to weed out hackers and griefers by persistence". We already know from the number of ban appeals by greens the system is clearly not working in that respect. Also, if persistence was the main reason for this, why do we even have SPECIFIC courses to beat, when someone like me has 200+ points?

3. The green rights aren't even related to HC at all. It makes sense how you can't test them in much different ways, but it shouldn't be unrelated to the rights you're earning in the first place. Also, the reward is underwhelming for the entire premise of HC. I mean, who wants to build maps after having barley any more rights than a blue or whitie have? The HC system is so difficult it's seldom a person makes it through. Even when someone does, they are inactive which makes no sense why you want to make it more difficult with each rotation.

If HC is to be fair, one or more of these things needs to happen:

A. Make the maps in the HC be easier difficulty, or at least make then less of repetitive and irritating ones.
B. Make there a CP between HCs, or at least give the people food to actually beat the HCs.
C. Make there more variety of choice. For example, have the HC 5 maps long with 5 different maps to choose for each one.
D. Keep the HC system the same for everyone and demote all the greens That had an easy HC to blues.
E. Make it more fun, not the dreaded nightmare for even greens that have beaten it.

I don't care if I'm still a blue going against greens. I have more points overall than most of the greenies, which is really saying something. At least give everyone a chance to have a say in the deciding factor of what HC is and what it's going to be.

 

[jagman77]

I have to agree with a couple of points here. the first that I think needs addressing is that, because players are more focused on mini games rather than survival, there isnt enough motivation to finish the system. The solution to this would be to create more rewards that relate to ffa, or to create a single map system with more of a storyline which combines the most advanced concepts of map making.

Will add more when Im at a keyboard

 

[Alphaesia]

What would be interesting, is when you get 10 points, you do either a parkour or a maze, 20 points, pk or maze, 40, etc.
The could like, give hints or give "free passes" to a certain section in perhaps like one big storyline mentioned above by jag.

 

[Zatharel]

Lengthy post incoming.

1) Disagree. You have 10 HCs to do, I had 11. So not only did I go through what you have to, I went through more than you have to. The hardcore system now and the 11 map system barely have any relevant differences. HC2 is still a blue's worst nightmare, there are still paths. I don't see why you have to redo HC. You can just continue from where you were.

2) So just remove the entire hardcore system that has been working just fine for the last 4, almost 5 years? Zero isn't dead because of hardcore being too hard, I can tell you that. It's dead because:
a) There is one map per two months, there are no FFA+ maps and there has been nothing in the museum since the Sphinx. No fast review process - no greens want to make maps. Why should I wait 3 months just to get a review book that's going to get my map published in the next 2 months?
b) We aren't updated. There's really no one to blame here, but it's still a valid reason.
c) There are no events. Remember NW, TAR, TGR or any other tournament hosted on the server? No, neither do I.

3) How do greens have "barely any more rights than blues or whities"? We can build maps, we have access to some of the oldest places on the server, we can test unfinished maps, we can submit museum projects, we can collaborate, we can vote on FFA+ maps and we have a say on almost everything that happens on the server. I'd call that a pretty good plus tbh.

D. Keep the HC system the same for everyone and demote all the greens to blues.
Why? We did our time, whenever that time was. Redoing the entire thing just because the current blues have trouble with it is ridiculous (by the way, there have been people that finished HC in the last 2 months, so it's really not impossible)
E. Make it more fun, not the dreaded nightmare for even greens that have beaten it.
This is the only thing I can agree on in the entire post.

 

[rmanimal]

1. To actually know if it was easy/difficult, I need to know what maps you even did for your HC. Also, you never touched on the point of the paragraph: "To give the greens the same experience as the blues did to see if it was fair"
2. The number of ban appeals in relations to HC are so frequent it's a high factor. Also, I don't mean I want to remove the entire system, but make it more fair in relations to the reward at the end. Also, I couldn't agree more with your three reasons why Minr is dead.
3. Most greenies give up on making maps in the first place. How are there 550+ builders if there is less than 300 maps on the server? Besides, most of the maps are made by more than one person which also lowers the number of players. Speaking of which, what's the point in making maps if there is no one to play them? I see more greens and OP's on than blues/whities. How many people will beat HC to see the oldest places on the server? Also, collaborating isn't a green-only thing. As you said before, "There is one map per 2 months, there are no FFA+ maps...", so the "power" of voting is underwhelming. Also: "...and we have a say on almost everything that happens on the server.". Why should HC be the determining factor in how much of a say I have on everything?

D. I never said it was impossible for a start. Secondly, some of the greens have had much easier versions of HC than blues currently, so that's where it stemmed from.

 

[jagman77]

Ok, now I'm at a keyboard, Ill say this. Hardcore IS zero, without it the only way to monitor ranks would be a donation based system, which ill never happen. However, when hardcore was created, the main appeal to players in a server was open world survival with a goal/theme.

Zero answered that with a donation free server that had a controlled system to prevent trolls from ruining peoples builds with the theme of the server being parkour/puzzle/maze.

Since that time, minecraft has shifted to a younger audience with the appeal being spreading chaos across their world. Instead of being creative and building their own challenges, players shifted their attention to mini-games and other user created goals. Coming back to zero, the challenge then became beat hardcore and get build rights!

Around this time, during the 7 course system, players decided to cheat the system and hack to try and get build rights. These players were caught and banned fairly quickly, but created an overflow of logs that admins had to read, and couldnt be ignored due to the numbers of people hacking. Those who didnt hack became green and went inactive fairly quickly, or built poor quality maps, which lead to the review system and valley being put in place.

The solution to players having to wait a month or more for green was to introduce a variation of the current hc system designed to slow the number of people finishing hardcore down so that they could have immediate attention from one of the admins.

This quick overview is what Ive observed, so feel free to correct me where Im wrong.

What @Zatharel Under point 3 is accurate, but its advertised as 'Finish Hardcore to get build rights' which doesn't mean much to the average white, who asks "Why not just find a survival server that I instantly have build rights on?" My way of addressing this problem would be to first of all create a 'green hangout' area somewhere on zero, in a more formal way than remembering all the /warps and what they actually mean. Then advertise the position as "Finish HC to get access to an exclusive green hangout, more events, a "greenies" section on the forums, early access to upcoming maps, and the ability to add your own creativity to the server through the survival world."

The "Green hangout" could combine the /warp spawn, warp r, and warp board area, and make map reviewing less formal by saying, leave your suggestions for the map makers in the chests below.

This still leaves the issue of hardcore, however I think my earlier post covered that.

Now onto my final topic, how friendly is the server to new players? Im not talking about how the staff treat whites, but how much of our own language do we take for granted. A player might say "Great, I immediately have access to ffa, ffa+, the valley, and the musuem, but where abouts is the parkour?" Ill let you guys think about that, every time you think "how simple does it need to be?" just step back and pretend you dont know anything about the server.

Sorry to those grammar nerds out there who try and fix my post.

 

[Alphaesia]

... D. Keep the HC system the same for everyone and demote all the greens to blues.
Why? We did our time, whenever that time was. Redoing the entire thing just because the current blues have trouble with it is ridiculous (by the way, there have been people that finished HC in the last 2 months, so it's really not impossible)....

I agree. You are NOT demoting every green. Beat hc, get green. Don't have everyone who is able to beat HC lose that privilage because you just can't face the fact you can't beat HC.

2. The number of ban appeals in relations to HC are so frequent it's a high factor.

So what. What does that mean. that HC is too hard, or because people are too lazy to face a challenge so they cheat to get the reward w/out work.

How many people will beat HC to see the oldest places on the server?

Rephrase that question. How many people will beat HC so they can see the OLDEST ACTIVE SERVER MAP IN HISTORY.

I see more greens and OP's on than blues/whities

Note the phrase "I see..." "I see" does not equal "There is"

Why should HC be the determining factor in how much of a say I have on everything?

commitment
kəˈmɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. 1.
   the state or quality of being dedicated to a cause, activity, etc.

 

[Zatharel]

What @Zatharel Under point 3 is accurate, but its advertised as 'Finish Hardcore to get build rights' which doesn't mean much to the average white, who asks "Why not just find a survival server that I instantly have build rights on?" My way of addressing this problem would be to first of all create a 'green hangout' area somewhere on zero, in a more formal way than remembering all the /warps and what they actually mean. Then advertise the position as "Finish HC to get access to an exclusive green hangout, more events, a "greenies" section on the forums, early access to upcoming maps, and the ability to add your own creativity to the server through the survival world."

The "Green hangout" could combine the /warp spawn, warp r, and warp board area, and make map reviewing less formal by saying, leave your suggestions for the map makers in the chests below.


Now onto my final topic, how friendly is the server to new players? Im not talking about how the staff treat whites, but how much of our own language do we take for granted. A player might say "Great, I immediately have access to ffa, ffa+, the valley, and the musuem, but where abouts is the parkour?" Ill let you guys think about that, every time you think "how simple does it need to be?" just step back and pretend you dont know anything about the server.

That's what I agreed on in the E point. Most people don't understand the other privileges you get as a green besides building maps.

As to your last point, I do think we need some sort of short introduction to the server. In the last few months I have not seen a single new whitie that automatically knew where to go. Perhaps there could be a small tutorial when you join the server, just to introduce you to the key areas on the server, the types of maps etc.

I won't reply to rm's post, Creeper2 already replied with most of the things I wanted to say.

 

[rmanimal]

I agree. You are NOT demoting every green. Beat hc, get green. Don't have everyone who is able to beat HC lose that privilage because you just can't face the fact you can't beat HC.



So what. What does that mean. that HC is too hard, or because people are too lazy to face a challenge so they cheat to get the reward w/out work.



Rephrase that question. How many people will beat HC so they can see the OLDEST ACTIVE SERVER MAP IN HISTORY.


Note the phrase "I see..." "I see" does not equal "There is"



commitment
kəˈmɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. 1.
   the state or quality of being dedicated to a cause, activity, etc.

Point 1. I've changed that phrase to people who have beaten an undeniably easy version. Also, you sound more like you're accusing me of writing this because I can't beat HC. That wasn't the point at all, it was to make it fairer. If it happens that nothing changes (50-50), I'd still be fine with doing HC, just I'd need to know to have a stronger arguement

Point 2. Because people are too lazy to face a challenge so they cheat to get a reward without work

Point 3. If you think many people will be interested in that, you're wrong. Why would anyone care to explore the oldest active server map in history rather than mini-games way too many are invested in? It's more a promotion, not an interesting thing to do.

Point 4. "I see" equals any new whities/blues are usually inactive, and that greens are more active.

Point 5.

A civil right is an enforceable right or privilege, which if interfered with by another gives rise to an action for injury. Examples of civil rights are freedom of speech, press, and assembly; the right to vote; freedom from involuntary servitude; and the right to equality in public places.

discrimination
dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/
noun

1. the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

 

[henniboy321]

There seems to be a lot of hate around hc lately and I do agree that their needs to be change. Also before I start my answer to everything I want to say that everything that has been done on minr has been done by someone in their free time, there is also no exact science on how to build stuff and people have a hard time building. They have put a lot of time into this server and lately all they are getting is criticism about going to 1.8 and hc and server not being active and stuff like that. While it's okay to point out stuff we know already hc needs to change, there's no need for yet another thread to yet again point everything out that is wrong even though I don't agree with everything you said.

I'm not going over the problems in your opinion because that are problems for you not really for me, what I will go over are the solutions and I'm glad you actually tried to get some solutions.

A. About this all I can say is that I do agree on a new itteration of hc, I made one with ricky some months ago, distinct also made I'm just not sure if they ever got through to the admins or they simply don't have the time.

B. A cp or food can indeed be a nice boost for you to keep going. But do note that a lot of cp's go hand in hand with repetitive and boring parkour(usually hard as well). I hope you can see the relation there.

C. I am a big fan of this one. I couldn't agree with you more it but just keep in mind that you want good maps in hc right. There might not be enough good maps for so many paths.

D. I understand your frustration and I know why you feel it would be fair but it isn't. Maybe in your eyes it is but think about the people who already beat the "easy" hc. Why do they have to be punished for the server making hc harder. You probably think why should you do the "hard" hc while they have to do the "easy". All I can say is it's like time. It is the same in reality, laws change and maybe you want to do something that used to be easy to set up while now it is forbidden or hard. Unfortunatly it has the same impact.

E. What is the definition of a fun map. Yes FFA+ are better than other maps but there it is hard to make something on personal preference. For example I really enjoyed aquarium(hc2) but is it therefor fun. I know a lot of people didn't like it. I feel this solution needs a bit more explainig

I kinda want to repeat what I said at the begining and that is that you can point out mistakes but don't push the line. We still do this into our free time and I can assure it takes a lot of time to do stuff on minr( not that I regret it) but please don't be so hard on us.

 

[jagman77]

Why should HC be the determining factor in how much of a say I have on everything?

Just to clear this up before it becomes any bigger, Hc doesnt determine it. Forgot is the best example of this. The issue is that alot of discussion on the servers future is held in greenie forum threads, so the easiest way to be involved is to be a green.


Please keep posts polite and too the point, I'll shut the thread down if it becomes a hate topic.

EDIT - Forget forgot, you are taking your say in the server in this very thread. I wouldnt respond if we werent interested in feedback.

 

[rmanimal]

I understand you Henni and Jag. It's more likely that it becomes irritating to die at Tower pk so many times that I forget to thank the people who even co-ordinate the entire server. It's hard to realize that people like Jag, Ajdj and all the other OP's use their free time for the server.

Personally, thank you to all the OPs and Creators that made this server what it is

 

[Zatharel]

Just to clear this up before it becomes any bigger, Hc doesnt determine it. Forgot is the best example of this. The issue is that alot of discussion on the servers future is held in greenie forum threads, so the easiest way to be involved is to be a green.


Please keep posts polite and too the point, I'll shut the thread down if it becomes a hate topic.

Agreed.

Point 5.

A civil right is an enforceable right or privilege, which if interfered with by another gives rise to an action for injury. Examples of civil rights are freedom of speech, press, and assembly; the right to vote; freedom from involuntary servitude; and the right to equality in public places.

discrimination
dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/
noun

1. the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

Are you really comparing a Minecraft server to the law and civil rights?
Jumping back to jag's post, no one said you don't have a say on things. As a green you just have a more respected opinion because you're known to be trusted.

 

[jagman77]

Jumping back to jag's post, no one said you don't have a say on things. As a green you just have a more respected opinion because you're known to be trusted.

I never said that, doing so would be unfair, what I meant was that greens have access to more than blues do on the forums. No matter what rank a player is, they still need to earn their trust with me.

 

[Zatharel]

I never said that, doing so would be unfair, what I meant was that greens have access to more than blues do on the forums. No matter what rank a player is, they still need to earn their trust with me.

I never said you did. That's just my own opinion, note the bold. Only that sentence applied to you.

Jumping back to jag's post, no one said you don't have a say on things. As a green you just have a more respected opinion because you're known to be trusted.

 

[rmanimal]

There's 4 reasons why I don't particularly like HC and why this post was made:
1. It's just a bit annoying. I'm sure you had found it annoying just like me.
2. It's difficult to have people trust you when you don't have a title on you that says so, especially when being a blue or a whitie.
3. The lack of players. It really de-motivates things, as well as just make it hard. If I was seeing more than 6 people per week, it would be easier to actually do the overall system.
4. I found it at the time a high factor of why the server was deserted.

While we can all agree HC has a few flaws, it's definitly not the cause of any of the problems that make me hate it. It's just more the nature and how rusty the server has gotten over the years (rusty as being not as much/as good as it used to be). It's true the HC system has had a decent success rate and is unique. It's that in the time zone I'm at, a player count higher than 6 is rare.

 

[MeisterXehanort]

...seriously though who thought it was a good idea to put telepads in there?

also #newsupericepath2015

 

[Pieceofcheese87]

...seriously though who thought it was a good idea to put telepads in there?

I probably would have quit at telepads if I was a blue today.

 

[awkward_hamster]

Perhaps this post is turning into another "Zero is dying" circlejerk, perhaps I'm about to add to it.

Since that time, minecraft has shifted to a younger audience

TL;DR: This ^ (Thanks Jag.)

While we, as (mostly) mature teenagers branching into adulthood may look back on HC with rose-tinted spectacles and dote on what was "three months of hell" (or for me two years of tears), we absolutely must remember that we are by no means the typical player-base for Minecraft anymore.

Which raises some choices that I think we, as a community should be thinking about. Forgive me if I'm paraphrasing posts elsewhere, I don't have the time or willpower to read through the many discussion threads there has been surrounding the entry system.

HC is, despite any arguments, very hard and incredibly time-consuming. It's very design is to check the validity of players through their perseverance, it is not (as has been argued by Rmanimal, amongst others) a test of how much of a human being one is, or how likely it is that you're going to become a green and then abuse your rights or disappear for months (inb4 me). The system merely takes advantage of the fact that there is a link between time taken on something and the probability of then destroying the thing you've spent time on, it's a strong link and thus it's a (relatively) good system.

However there are flaws, most notably perhaps that only a small proportion of people are willing to spend such large amounts of time on something in the real world, let alone on Minecraft. This means that we end up with a green section comprising of lots of people with very good commitment which is, of course, a good thing but as Jag mentioned these kinds of people are fast being swallowed up by vast numbers of people who do not have that level of commitment.

(What perhaps doesn't help is that the majority of the community who have reached the end of HC hold little sympathy towards those who haven't, and put it down to a lack of maturity rather than a lack of time, but that's an argument for another day.)

This raises the problem that we always seem to get to in these threads (Please note I'm trying to make the 5 pages of essays we usually have in these threads obsolete, in the name of fresh and interesting content for the home page), is there an alternative? Probably not, no. We are of course limited to the boxy walls of Minecraft and thus don't have many ways to design an entry system that is fair, inclusive and foolproof.

I believe that we now have to find a compromise. The bottom line is we need more players and the current target market of 14-21 year olds with a large amount of time is disappearing fast. We could continue as we are now with a group of greens who respond to HC complaints with the traditional "back in my day I didn't leave my house for a year and was spoon fed whilst I completed HC2",(taking this approach almost guarantees losing good, community-oriented players like Rmanimal who make more contributions to Minr than I and many others)OR we re-think our system as Rm suggested and try and break into the younger audience that Minecraft is reaching.

Now I'm not suggesting we go on Planet Minecraft and advertise ourselves as a 24/7 1233345668GB TOWNY FACTION PROMODE SERVER however I think we need to understand that the HC system is the defining element of our server and thus it needs to welcome and encourage players as opposed to alienate and discourage them. The current HC is very hostile and while I understand the whole ethos is meant to be "3hard5u r u man enough", it would be ridiculous to argue that advertising a theme park with signs saying "99% of people aren't allowed to enter the gates. Don't Bother" is an effective technique (Yes I am aware of the merits of such a method in certain circumstances)

SO WHAT DO I SUGGEST (bloody hell this took way longer than I intended).

• Making HC encouraging instead of super-hostile.
• Rewarding players for community contribution not just for their ability to spend a month mapping a maze.
• Encouraging greenies to take a positive attitude instead of a "bruh why are you even bothering, I'm going to discourage you from trying and then complain when there's only me online" attitude.

So yeah, there's my vast, unfollowable and largely useless opinion about this whole thing.

 

[Zatharel]

SO WHAT DO I SUGGEST (bloody hell this took way longer than I intended).

• Making HC encouraging instead of super-hostile.
• Rewarding players for community contribution not just for their ability to spend a month mapping a maze.
• Encouraging greenies to take a positive attitude instead of a "bruh why are you even bothering, I'm going to discourage you from trying and then complain when there's only me online" attitude.

So yeah, there's my vast, unfollowable and largely useless opinion about this whole thing.

And see awkward this all sounds so good in a thread, in a post, in more threads, in more posts, but are we really doing anything besides debating in these forum threads with no moving forward?
No, no we are not.

I can continue ranting about how dead zero is, about why it is so dead, about what we should be doing etc etc, but to what end? Despite of what I am going to say, even I am not going to follow what I said. For zero to move forward there should be no more "we need to" or "we should" or "we are going to", there should only be "we are".

It can't be fixed by simple advertising, I can tell you that. You gave PlanetMinecraft as an example and I can tell you there that only 1/10 of the players that join from there won't end up getting banned, I can get to work on statistics if you like, It doesn't matter if X amount of dedicated players join when they will either:
a) never have the motivation to even get to 20 points because no one is on.
b) never have the motivation to finish HC simply because it's either too hard or because they don't feel like wasting their time.
c) be stuck in HC forever only to finish it, stay green for a week then suddenly leave the server out of nothing to do. (*cough*)
d) eventually get green and eventually just become dead weight to the server by only coming on to talk. (*looks self in the mirror*)

The only things that might end up fixing this place is:
a) better motivation to go up the ranks
b) more things to do as a blue/whitie than just hunt points and do HC.
c) events.
d) greenie events (TAR), greenie coop builds (MINR sign), etc etc etc.

Once again, all of what I said just sounds so great in a post, doesn't it? Good? Okay, let's go and do it.


tl;dr
We need to stop debating and get to work.