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Hexa Revamp

KimboBlade_

Peon
Greenie
Oct 26, 2017
32
57
Hey guys!

With all of the recently added challenges, maps, and events Minr has been popping off in terms of change. A change that I would like to suggest is to revamp Hexa. I do understand the original reasoning why Hexa was created was to be a troll challenge, but after reb beat it, I knew I have always wanted to beat it. After 5 attempts at Hexa back to back, I came to realize that in the current state Hexa is not possible. With the Badlands challenge (keep in mind, starting with heartless, thus allowing restarts to save lives), I completed the challenge with 64 lives, meaning that I used 236 lives to complete all of the current black maps. Just that alone was a huge feat to complete, let alone beating all of them within 66 lives, and also not counting the forced lives. I have multiple ideas on how to revamp this:

1. Starting the Hexa challenge with 333 lives or 666 lives (with the points being decreased if went with 666 lives)
2. Start with low-ish lives (say 300), then as you complete multiple maps in a row this adds lives back to you. (say you beat 10 maps in a row with no deaths. This awards you with an extra 15 lives).
3. Adding "checkpoints" to each color difficulty, and saving X amount of lives that you have left when hitting that checkpoint, kind of similar to HC where you have to beat multiple maps with no cps.

These are all just random ideas I've come up with, but I am fully open to suggestions. Again-- I'm not trying to start any beef, I just want to see what you guys have to say on these ideas :)
 

Alphaesia

Maze Connoisseur
Op
Apr 21, 2014
1,557
847
Definitely needs a revamp and I personally like the 333/666 lives one most, though the second one would also be super cool if possible to implement.

What's the point of a challenge that's impossible?
The point was never to beat the challenge. The point was to see how far you could go. That's why the leaderboard shows the stage you go to.

I do understand the original reasoning why Hexa was created was to be a troll challenge
Troll challenge?


I believe we should leave Hexa as-is. When it was first added, and for many years, it wasn't believed to be possible, and this situation isn't much different (black maps to us now are what the reds were to us back then). Just because someone managed to beat it doesn't mean everyone should be entitled to. I don't think we can alter it in a way that doesn't completely change the challenge (with 666 lives, getting to the reds and blacks would be easy). It's a part of the server history now.
 

Fire

Absolute
May 13, 2015
554
465
I believe we should leave Hexa as-is. When it was first added, and for many years, it wasn't believed to be possible, and this situation isn't much different (black maps to us now are what the reds were to us back then). Just because someone managed to beat it doesn't mean everyone should be entitled to. I don't think we can alter it in a way that doesn't completely change the challenge (with 666 lives, getting to the reds and blacks would be easy). It's a part of the server history now.
Hexa very much was beatable back when it was made, and even nearly two years later when reb beat it. Since then, however, the difficulty has spiked tremendously with the introduction of black difficulty and so many maps in that bracket. I do not think it's remotely fair for everyone else to not have a realistic chance of beating Hexa now when it was much easier two years ago. Because someone has beaten Hexa and has the reward from back when it was easier, there are only two fair options: we either remove reb's Hexa completion, or we make the challenge beatable now and into the future so players may have just as much of a chance now as reb did. The latter option definitely seems better to me as taking away reb's achievement would be wrong.

As for how to revamp it, I do not think a stagnant, set number of lives works well, because that means the challenge only becomes harder and harder. I think instead the number of lives you have should scale with the length of the entire map list and with how many hard maps there are, that way the challenge can remain balanced now and into the future. I have a couple ideas as to how that could be done, though take these suggestions lightly because I have no idea how easy or difficult either of these would be to implement:
1: You start with a very low amount of lives but gain more overtime, and the rate at which that happens depends on the difficulty. So for example, you might get 1 life for every 10 white maps you complete, 1 for every 5 blue maps, 1 for 3 green, 1 for 2 yellow, 1 per every orange, 2 per red, and 5 per black. This is probably the more difficult one to add in.
2: Same as suggestion 1, but the all the lives you would gain over time are given to you right at the start. This would remove the need to track individual player progress within each difficulty bracket, but it would make getting through the yellows and oranges much easier than I think it currently is now.
 
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Dumbmutt

Stargazer
Greenie
Jul 30, 2018
416
617
I mean it's still possible to do theoretically.
Though really unlikely, you can still do the challenge. (Not saying it shouldn't be revamped.)
As Creepa said though the point of the challenge I'm sure was to see how far a player can go while doing all the maps. Not a small amount of players to actually complete it. I say giving the player 333+ is really excessive compared to the original 66.
You don't have to agree or whatever, but that's simply my 2 cents.
 

BTJRedwing

Berdst Friend
Op
Mar 7, 2020
362
445
Personally, I see more value in keeping Hexa itself how it is, but give more emphasis on the "How far you can go?" part of it by giving rewards for reaching milestones in the challenge. This could be based off of difficulty (A reward for completing all of the white/blue/green/etc. maps in Hexa), or based on the number of maps completed (A reward for completing 25, 50, 100 maps in Hexa, etc.) This would still keep the prestige of Reb's accomplishment, while also making clear the idea that it isn't designed to be actually finished.

I agree with Creepa that the challenge shouldn't be nerfed because someone completed it and we all want to as well, but currently there isn't any incentive to try it at all. I think having milestone rewards is a good way to do that, but I'm aware that people disagree with that already.
 

Fire

Absolute
May 13, 2015
554
465
Personally, I see more value in keeping Hexa itself how it is, but give more emphasis on the "How far you can go?" part of it by giving rewards for reaching milestones in the challenge. This could be based off of difficulty (A reward for completing all of the white/blue/green/etc. maps in Hexa), or based on the number of maps completed (A reward for completing 25, 50, 100 maps in Hexa, etc.) This would still keep the prestige of Reb's accomplishment, while also making clear the idea that it isn't designed to be actually finished.

I agree with Creepa that the challenge shouldn't be nerfed because someone completed it and we all want to as well, but currently there isn't any incentive to try it at all. I think having milestone rewards is a good way to do that, but I'm aware that people disagree with that already.
Again, someone has completed the challenge back when it was much easier and received a reward, which no one can now get. I don't see how this is fair for anyone.

Also, I see no value in rewards for beating a certain number of maps, because those rewards only become easier and easier as time goes on as more easy maps are made.
 
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BTJRedwing

Berdst Friend
Op
Mar 7, 2020
362
445
Not to speak for her, but I don't think it would be fair to reb to devalue the reward either. Regardless, I think there's something unique in having a challenge where the challenge comes in trying to get as far as possible rather than trying to complete it. I don't think having a reward in the end that's practically impossible to get is that big of an issue, as long as there's something to strive for before it that is viable to get.

What's being proposed here isn't really equal to current Hexa, it's basically a new challenge where the idea IS to beat it, making it just like all the other challenges on the server. Could there be a challenge similar to it where you earn lives throughout? Sure. But I don't think changing the way Hexa works is the way to do that.
 

Alphaesia

Maze Connoisseur
Op
Apr 21, 2014
1,557
847
There's a reward for doing so...
Right but it was never expected to be claimed (which is why it has the rarity of Legendary and is the only cosmetic to do so).

Hexa very much was beatable back when it was made, and even nearly two years later when reb beat it. Since then, however, the difficulty has spiked tremendously with the introduction of black difficulty and so many maps in that bracket. I do not think it's remotely fair for everyone else to not have a realistic chance of beating Hexa now when it was much easier two years ago. Because someone has beaten Hexa and has the reward from back when it was easier, there are only two fair options: we either remove reb's Hexa completion, or we make the challenge beatable now and into the future so players may have just as much of a chance now as reb did. The latter option definitely seems better to me as taking away reb's achievement would be wrong.
I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. While the maps we have now are harder than the maps we had a few years ago, we are also far better parkourists than we were just a few years ago. When Hexa was introduced, getting past the yellow maps was considered basically impossible. I still think that reb's feat is at the same level as if someone was to beat it today.
 

Fire

Absolute
May 13, 2015
554
465
I still think that reb's feat is at the same level as if someone was to beat it today.
I'm focused purely on the difficulty of the challenge itself, so I disagree, as does reb.

Right but it was never expected to be claimed (which is why it has the rarity of Legendary and is the only cosmetic to do so).
It may have never been expected to be claimed but now it has been, so we should make adjustments accordingly or remove reb's completion, and the latter no one wants.

Not to speak for her, but I don't think it would be fair to reb to devalue the reward either.
This wouldn't be devaluing the reward, it would be bringing the challenge down to a beatable level similar to the difficulty it was at when reb beat it.

What's being proposed here isn't really equal to current Hexa, it's basically a new challenge where the idea IS to beat it, making it just like all the other challenges on the server. Could there be a challenge similar to it where you earn lives throughout? Sure. But I don't think changing the way Hexa works is the way to do that.
It would be completely redundant to have two separate challenges both consisting of all maps and both in the same order, at least in my opinion.
 
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Bahnarli

Active Player
Greenie
May 18, 2020
249
383
Is there a possibility to try to recreate the challenge to very close to how it was originally? i.e. going back and locking the maps to when reb beat it, and replace any changed maps with approximated maps?
 

BTJRedwing

Berdst Friend
Op
Mar 7, 2020
362
445
It may have never been expected to be claimed but now it has been, so we should make adjustments accordingly or remove reb's completion, and the latter no one wants.
Why does it have to be adjusted now that someone has completed it? I don't see any reasoning for that. Why can't reb's completion just be written off as an unexpected one-off achievement and keep it as a "How far can you get?" challenge as intended. Of course other people want the title, but why should we make it easier just for that reason?

It would be completely redundant to have two separate challenges both consisting of all maps and both in the same order, at least in my opinion.
I might agree. It wasn't a suggestion, just a hypothetical. I think Hexa is it's current state is a really unique challenge, and reforms to it should only be made to reward players for progress in it. I don't think nerfing it is a good solution, as it doesn't preserve what Hexa is. I don't think it should be very possible. I personally don't see an issue if no one ever completes it again, because that wasn't the point of it.
 

rickyboy320

Administrator
Op
Nov 18, 2013
2,249
1,748
Hi, thanks for bringing up the topic.
1. Starting the Hexa challenge with 333 lives or 666 lives (with the points being decreased if went with 666 lives)
333 / 666 is just too much compared to the 66 we have currently. I think we need to figure out what approximately has changed since reb's victory of hexa, and re-scale based on that.
We want the title to remain 'legendary' because we do not want to devalue it: reb worked hard for the title and should remain as such. I am not completely sure which maps significantly impact the difficulty of hexa since reb's completion, however.

Whatever we do, it will not be beatable by the most majority of the players - top tier parkourists struggled even with the hexa as it was back then. A bump from 66 to 333 is far too lenient in my opinion.

1: You start with a very low amount of lives but gain more overtime, and the rate at which that happens depends on the difficulty. So for example, you might get 1 life for every 10 white maps you complete, 1 for every 5 blue maps, 1 for 3 green, 1 for 2 yellow, 1 per every orange, 2 per red, and 5 per black. This is probably the more difficult one to add in.
If there is any solution that I like the most to increasing the number of lives, it is this one. It would require a good amount of balancing, however.

There's a reward for doing so...
True, but it is also the highest tiered reward that is out there, eclipsing the likes of winning puzzlecomp or mazecomp (which in their own right take months to complete and are only given to one person).


Of course other people want the title, but why should we make it easier just for that reason?
I think the problem here is that the work that is required to get the title now is even higher than what reb had to do to get the title, and thus being 'unfair'.

Again, someone has completed the challenge back when it was easy and received a reward, which no one can now get. I don't see how this is fair for anyone.
Calling it easy is the understatement of the century tbh.

Is there a possibility to try to recreate the challenge to very close to how it was originally? i.e. going back and locking the maps to when reb beat it, and replace any changed maps with approximated maps?
No chance, no. That would be rather difficult to maintain considering the number of maps, and kind of goes against the spirit of the challenge (all maps with limited lives).

================


The leaderboard was indeed added because it was pretty much a 'hold out as long as you can' challenge. When introducing it, I thought about using 100 or 50 lives, and settled on 66 (partly because of the 6 theme, partly because of departure). While that value came out of left-field, and personally I thought the challenge was extremely difficult at the time, running the challenge many times made me think at least reaching reds was possible. I don't know how reb somehow finished the challenge, but that was a result of many attempts, complete hexa-strats for certain maps, endurance to the max, and a lot of effort and time -- only something I think reb was able to do at the time :). I certainly think that the tail-end of the challenge has become much more difficult due to the introduction of numbers of black maps. I'm not sure how deadly they are though.

Thing is, I do not want to reduce the difficulty of the front-end of the challenge to compensate for the difficulty added to the tail-end. Therefore I think fire's suggestion is nice, where lives are given to you throughout the challenge, rather than upfront. So if we can somehow scale this to yield similar (maybe slightly less compared to what it is now) difficulty up until around the end of red maps, and then give the player some extra lives to take on the black gauntlet, I probably won't be against this proposition.
 

Hex

Board Grandpa
Op
Board
Jul 26, 2016
1,374
1,335
Squid recently said in chat "I did Heartless with only 7 deaths!" (and this was after grinding) Hexa is definitely not feasibly beatable.
The intent of having a "go as far as you can" challenge is definitely cool, but I feel that reb beating it in its entirely changed the landscape somewhat. It went from unattainable to attainable. We all thought it was impossible yes, but it turned out not to be.
True, but it is also the highest tiered reward that is out there, eclipsing the likes of winning puzzlecomp or mazecomp (which in their own right take months to complete and are only given to one person).
I would honestly say that if we reserve our legendary titles for one thing that we intended to be impossible, we should reconsider what we are considering legendary titles. I would expect that actually beating something that's meant to be unbeatable would give a unique reward above the highest tier, not a reward of the highest tier. And on top of that, objectively speaking, Amazeing 2017 is more rare than Hexagonal. It was the result of creating a map and having it judged as the best one in a competition, one player has it, and there is a 0% chance that it can ever be gotten again, while Hexagonal's chances are low, but not 0%. Why is that one a lower tier?

The other option that hasn't been brought up in this thread would be to award Hexa to the person that currently has the record. It would get easier to beat the current record over time, but also possible to get a higher record, and we could also easily reward Reb the title permanently as acknowledgement that she did the impossible.
 

Fire

Absolute
May 13, 2015
554
465
and we could also easily reward Reb the title permanently as acknowledgement that she did the impossible.
But she didn't--the fact that she completed it proves that.

As for giving the reward to the person with the highest Hexa score, that makes it based heavily on time. If someone made it all the way into the black maps in a Hexa run, let's say 6 black maps in before failing, then someone would only have to wait a month or two before there's been enough new maps to where they just have to make it to the higher end of red and not to any black maps to beat the previous world record. This would highly discourage people from trying to go as far as they possibly can, and instead only to just beat the world record and be done with it, because their accomplishment will become far easier to match in short order anyway. This setup would work far better if Hexa was in chronological order--if that were the case, I think that it would be pretty interesting.
 

rebplane

Boring Turtle
Op
Jan 5, 2014
544
382
I very much dislike Hexa remaining as a "get as far as you can" challenge. For example, the current record holder lost their last life to Agni, while to beat their record, you don't even have to get through the yellow maps now (map #257 is now Traffic). Also, what Fire just posted above me.

I actually would really love if the Hexa leaderboard went like so, giving the last map the player died on to give more meaning to the level the player reached:

1: rebplane / 257 (Agni)
2: KimbosIPA / 245 (Agni)
etc.

Back to the main topic:

Hexa pretty much depends on 3 things: skill, endurance and friends, the last thing being something many people including myself are, well, lacking in, even if they have the first two things (not saying that I have the first two things, just saying in general), so that's probably partly the reason the record hasn't been beaten yet - I honestly think the co-op maps turn people away from Hexa almost as much as maps like Heartless do. What I meant to point out was 66 lives and the increasing number of co-op maps, meaning the increasing number of chances your buddy will kill you a dozen times and kill your record is disheartening, and with lives in this too-low range, it doesn't represent the players' skill whatsoever, but rather their ability to recruit skilled players. My point is, adding this onto required kill maps, as well as deathy maps (Satellite, Heartless, list goes on), yes, Hexa needs to change.

I like something along the lines of Fire's life reward as you go on idea, and I would help work on balancing if this is what we're going to end up going for.
 
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rickyboy320

Administrator
Op
Nov 18, 2013
2,249
1,748
I would honestly say that if we reserve our legendary titles for one thing that we intended to be impossible, we should reconsider what we are considering legendary titles
Yes, but hexa was not impossible, just something so out of the ordinary that it's equal to a legendary feat. While winning mazecomp is an amazing feat, it was a guaranteed outcome of the event, and imo therefore not worthy of the legendary status (even though only one can get it).
 

KimboBlade_

Peon
Greenie
Oct 26, 2017
32
57
I very much dislike Hexa remaining as a "get as far as you can" challenge. For example, the current record holder lost their last life to Agni, while to beat their record, you don't even have to get through the yellow maps now (map #257 is now Traffic). Also, what Fire just posted above me.

I actually would really love if the Hexa leaderboard went like so, giving the last map the player died on to give more meaning to the level the player reached:

1: rebplane / 257 (Agni)
2: KimbosIPA / 245 (Agni)
etc.
This would be a cool feature, as with maps being added, you can get a feel for how far the previous person ran even months down the road.

Hexa pretty much depends on 3 things: skill, endurance and friends, the last thing being something many people including myself are, well, lacking in, even if they have the first two things (not saying that I have the first two things, just saying in general), so that's probably partly the reason the record hasn't been beaten yet - I honestly think the co-op maps turn people away from Hexa almost as much as maps like Heartless do. What I meant to point out was 66 lives and the increasing number of co-op maps, meaning the increasing number of chances your buddy will kill you a dozen times and kill your record is disheartening, and with lives in this too-low range, it doesn't represent the players' skill whatsoever, but rather their ability to recruit skilled players. My point is, adding this onto required kill maps, as well as deathy maps (Satellite, Heartless, list goes on), yes, Hexa needs to change.
Fully agreed on this. Co-op maps are very dependant upon the person you choose, and when I ran with Average a few times there were times he messed up and we had to get a third person to come and save me xD And if we could figure out a way to get around a map like heartless that could EASILY take all 66 lives alone.

333 / 666 is just too much compared to the 66 we have currently. I think we need to figure out what approximately has changed since reb's victory of hexa, and re-scale based on that.
I get that 333/666 is a tremendous step-up from the original 66, but I gave the reasoning of how badlands alone took me almost 300 lives, on top of being able to restart heartless to ensure I had a great start on minimal deaths. I only threw those numbers out to get the conversation started, but truthfully am unsure how to balance the challenge again.
 

Repacharge

Definitely Sherlock Holmes 100% why not lol
Greenie
Apr 30, 2020
59
29
I think that the original hexa challenge should still be preserved as a challenge. Like have the original be in a "impossible to beat" challenge section or something idk.
 
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