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Resolved HC Suggestion/Problem

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DistinctMadness

Mafia Overseer 2.0
Greenie
Nov 2, 2013
664
262
HC Suggestion/Problem
Alright, I've been talking to TheForgottenUser, (I_F0rg0t) and he's got me thinking this too:
If HC is a test to weed out griefers, why does it have such skill based segments?
Wouldn't the perfect HC be all mazes and puzzles, so that anyone dedicated enough can beat it?

Personally I think that it makes a lot more sense to have the HC system have minimal parkours and to be mostly dedicated to mazes or puzzles.

I would like to get other people's opinions on this though, so please leave a comment sharing your own opinion.​
 

Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
the problem with leaving it as mazes and puzzles only is that it would be easy for someone to get through without doing any work. People could just find a solution online. Before I started working, I kept an eye out on youtube for new walkthrough videos of zero to try to prevent this. However, I have not been able to do this search for the past few months. This means that more work would be placed on ops--especially those who actually are familiar with the timing of the courses--in order to filter out people who just found a walkthrough. We would also need to rotate the courses in the HC set much more frequently, adding more work on to yeroc and aj who are both working on degrees.

I'm not saying I don't see your point and have a level of agreement with it, I'm just thinking it would not currently be practical.
 

bstrey

Bread
Op
Oct 29, 2013
255
208
I have heard this opinion of his before, and have mixed feelings about it. To start, I believe that *anyone* dedicated enough can pass the parkour segments. Forgot, for example, is most certainly a better parkourist than I am. Although, I spent 5 months in HC and hours on end of un interrupted work in the maps (please do not take this as an attack, it is merely a statement). However, things have changed a bit since then, and we played in different rotations. Hardcore has gotten much longer and more difficult over the years.

To be honest, I never saw the point in increasing the difficulty. I can count the times I've seen a green hacking on my left hand-- the system works great! It seems as if a mere influx in the amount of greens causes enough worry to make HC harder and harder. There are several blues who love this community and participate in it more than some greens, whether on the server or the forums. I've seen them try relentlessly at the maps, but it does get boring and discouraging after a while. Eventually, some have stopped trying or left.

In short, I'll agree that something should be done about HC, but I don't believe that it should be abolishing tough parkours and focusing on intellectual features.Then it's just a different wall, but for players who's reflexes are better than their brains. They key is finding balance. Maybe adding checkpoints; especially in areas of tough parkour? A little less parkour in general? Starting out with something as lengthy, and in my opinion difficult, as World Tour might not be the best way to organize things either. If there is concern over the spread of answers or players leading others through, what about a warp system which randomizes the order/type of map you play? Maps like Lava Maze (assuming that the labyrinth aspect still functions) that have multiple or changing paths would be awesome for pesky walkthroughs. Also, there are currently a butt load of staff members that could help out; yer and Aj shouldn't have to shoulder the work. ;P
 
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TheForgottenUser

Honorary green
Whitey
Nov 3, 2013
584
267
Oh wow, I'm kind of surprised you posted this. I was definitely going to push for this when I completed all the mazes, but I didn't want to say anything until I had some credibility to speak from. I don't really want to get into a heated debate. I've explained my opinion to a number of people on the server (bstrey, Distinct, blie, Ian, and a few others just off the top of my head). The rest of you can figure out whether or not it would be a good decision, and I can just explain any questions you might have.

@Srentiln I've already thought of a solution for this, but Distinct neglected to mention it. The answer? Self-rewriting maze(s). You can use redstone/script blocks to create a maze that's either A) Unique to the user or B) Rewrites itself as you go, so it's extremely hard to map. Puzzles could also have some personalization aspect to them, but I really haven't given puzzles much thought, since I had been planning to open up this topic later and not right now.

@bstrey Our skills are different. I'm rubbish at ladder parkour. 98% of my time spent on HC was on a single part of a single parkour.

As one final point: If mazes and puzzles are easily cheated on, what's the point of having them in HC at all? You may as well take them out/replace them with parkours if you're worried about that.
 

jagman77

Killer of Very Large Horses
Op
Oct 27, 2013
344
158
Think it would be good to here from @Ajdj on this, but I think that hc is a little difficult, I don't think the parkour is the problem. Im not going to write a paragraph on this, but if I had the dedication to spend 18 months finishing hc, (mid 2011 to nov 2012) then I dont see why it should be a problem for anyone else.

I dont believe there is a skill that humans cant develop to the point of being good at it. I think that the issue with hc isnt whats involved in it, its how its presented, that players arent motivated enough to finish it.
 

Ajdj

Minr Admin
Op
Oct 28, 2013
979
708
I've got a lot going on in the next 4-5 days (Imagine the scholarly equivalent of the moon from Majora's Mask crashing down on me up until about next Tuesday; Hence why I have not been on in the last 4-5 days), as well as midnight deadlines to meet tonight and tomorrow.

Hardcore has always been about persistence, but I think I might have enabled that through difficulty and length more than I should have.

In Short:
-Yes, the parkour needs be tuned down, but we can't abolish it altogether.
-In the next iteration of HC (WIP), I want the player to have a bit more choice in what types of maps they play (Most likely resulting in another gutting of the mid-section)
-It is on the longer side and needs to be cut down.
-I want to change it, but am still working on the best solution for both HC and server.

In Super short: Concerns noted, I'm working on it.
 

Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
@Srentiln I've already thought of a solution for this, but Distinct neglected to mention it. The answer? Self-rewriting maze(s). You can use redstone/script blocks to create a maze that's either A) Unique to the user or B) Rewrites itself as you go, so it's extremely hard to map. Puzzles could also have some personalization aspect to them, but I really haven't given puzzles much thought, since I had been planning to open up this topic later and not right now.
That's actually along the lines of what Sra is. Shri Tra Savern a bit too, but it isn't eligable for HC since it's so heavily luck-based. My puzzle map (if I ever finish it) better exemplifies the concept of self-rewriting puzzles. However, it still has some patterns that could be predicted,
 

creeperTNTman198

Lord of the Creepers
Mod
Nov 2, 2013
752
214
I would just like to throw out there that some of what makes HC fun, especially in the late stages, is being in a group of 2-3 people that do HC together and get green together. Self-rewriting mazes and puzzles, while an interesting concept for HC, would take some of the collaborative fun away. I know that I did much of HC alone, and for large sections of the time was quite lonely and wanted some friends. I also know that many people still think fondly on their HC mates, even after 3+ years. Just felt this should be addressed.
 

blie4

Not a Peon
Mod
Nov 3, 2013
387
180
I like Aj's idea to allow the player to choose the type of map they play.

One way this could work is to have 2-3 of the mandatory maps be moderately hard parkours, and then once you can choose your path, you can choose a general genre of parkour, mazes, or puzzles. These paths can be where the true difficulty of HC is, which the player gets to choose the genre of based on their expertise. Again, this is just an idea to represent choosing your map genre. :p
 

rickyboy320

Penguin Master
Op
Board
Nov 18, 2013
1,990
1,207
To help with the variety, I've updated the checkpoint plugin (again). It should now be able to split your FFA and HC checkpoint. This has been suggested by a ton of blues, and I just went and tried it out. Many said it would be hard to implement, it really wasn't :)

To toggle your checkpoint mode you just use /checkpoint hc
This way blues can play FFA and HC simultaniously without stressing over their checkpoint.

When we update, blues have to reclick their HC checkpoint (when it's updated to the [checkpointHC] format) to certify that checkpoint as HC, before going into FFA and setting their checkpoints there.

This may just give some players the variation they need, to push through another HC level after they've finished their FFA map.

-Updated information at dev section.


On the parkour problem. I was honestly very, very bad in parkour when I started HC. When I finished it, I became a LOT better. It takes time to develop the 'skill', which is also part of dedication. The biggest part of this server is parkour after all, so it would only be logical to have parkour in HC. I agree to easen HC up a little, but throwing away all the parkour is a no-go.
 

Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
In reply to creeper, for me HC wasn't a social thing. It was like a Rubix Cube, frustrating but a lot of fun to work out on my own. For the first two levels, I had spent so much time re-running them to get to mob parkour that I had the paths memorized. I joined up with chad at the end of mob parkour because it was my first time getting to that point and I didn't think I would be that lucky a second time. After that, sticking together was more of a, "might as well since we are both here" thing.

I don't discount that others want to work together, but I personally put more value in the system being reliable in its purpose than making sure groups stay together.
 

henniboy321

Chicken eater
Mod
Nov 2, 2013
458
286
Maybe in other to keep the players interested it might be a good idea to have the first 1 or 2 levels be green/yellow. Experience has learned me that people who got to e.g. hc4 rarely don't finish hc. As it might be frustrating when you can't even get level 1 or 2 so people just give up on it.
 

swimmy1212

Swimming around
Op
Feb 28, 2015
456
176
Hi, I'm swimmy1212. Most of you probably know me since I've been on and off for the past few years.

I have been hc for an entire two and a half years. Each parkour takes me months to complete. I am pretty bad at parkour, I admit it. But I love to make it. I love to add story and try to make something unique out of it. However, the parkour has been a roadblock for me for years. I suggest having one parkour of medium difficulty that is very long to still add some commitment. Funkytown was a good parkour, a longer version of that with no checkpoint would work. And the Aquarium maze is certainly enough to make someone give up or have to work hard.

I just feel parkour is a bit too selective and all I would like to do is MAKE good parkour, mazes, or puzzles.
 

thoraofasgard

New Fish
Mar 1, 2015
3
0
I agree. Also, I keep dying from stupid stuff, like running out of hunger or missing a drop into a biome -.- And it's hardly fair considering that they're not exactly part of the map... It just makes me not want to play on the server at all.
 

henniboy321

Chicken eater
Mod
Nov 2, 2013
458
286
It's not that I don't respect your opinions but I fear that you just want hc to change so that you will be able to finish. You both came up with examples from your own experience and both of you as expected find it too hard. Again you could have valuable arguments but please don't come up with examples from your own experience to enforce your arguments. Or do it when you already finished a part e.g. you are in hc5 and you think that hc3 was too easy or something.
 

Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
I don't think anyone doesn't complain while in HC. My biggest frustration was with Mob Parkour because the path forward was hidden and I kept trying various (incorrect) things to continue forward, but eventually found it and was only irritated with myself at that point for not noticing it.

In some ways, HC has strayed from its actual intent. However, that's only because the server has evolved from a survival server with a course system instead of a white list to being almost 100% a challenge course server and the shift in focus has caused a shift in how people build their challenges. New ideas have increased difficulty, and HC wouldn't be able to be considered HC if it wasn't more difficult than the average of the other courses.
 

dannnfollll4

Old Fish
Greenie
Oct 28, 2013
12
8
I really like the point that Henni brought up, maybe we should consider making the first couple levels simple. Have it almost as an introduction to the idea of HC. A lot of people have come into hardcore used to the idea of food and checkpoints in hard maps, and once they get to HC its a shock to the system.

Yes, the system is designed to weed out the people who aren't committed to the server but I feel the overall goal has changed in the past years (because we needed them to). The system used to be to weed out cheater and hackers, I feel that now the system is used more so to make sure the members of our server are committed to working hard and sticking around no matter what. We don't have to worry about cheaters as much because we have an amazing team of ops/mods who are on top of the server.

I know I haven't been on the server that much recently but I have (as well as many others) seen the influx of people who are upset at every iteration that HC goes through. You can't please every member that comes onto the server, some are good at parkour others are great at puzzles or mazes. You can't narrow down the HC system to one single type of map because you are alienating one group of people no matter what.

I'm sorry I rambled a bit and probably said things multiple times.

TL;DR- The HC system changes and no one likes the new changes (no matter what), you can't change it to cater to one group of players. Maybe some easy intro levels to fuel players to continue would be beneficial. I love everyone :)
 

swimmy1212

Swimming around
Op
Feb 28, 2015
456
176
I wouldn't call it just wanting to finish it... It seems more like it is inevitable I will ever finish it concerning my jumping skills are at a low. Seems it would be more fair to everyone to have them pick their skill set.

Take it what you will, but I think something should be done, even if it is little. Even if it is designed to keep them around, I still feel like their is way too much parkour in hc and it should be replaced with a bit more intellectual skill level.
 

CreepaShadowz

Maze Connoisseur
Mod
Apr 21, 2014
1,169
544
For all the whities reading this. If you run out of hunger or miss a drop, that is your fault and we are not going to change it.

Conserve your hunger and be accurate :)
 
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