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Resolved HC Suggestion/Problem

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rmanimal

Unidentified Quipping Outsider
Op
Board
Jan 19, 2015
549
465
Here's my opinion on the subject:
1. I believe that there should be a bit less parkour, but shouldn't be eliminated entirely.
2. HC is starting to become more like they want to limit the amount of people that become green. Sure, they certainly weed out hackers and griefers, but with new iterations it's starting to become more like "Only the best are allowed" statement than it's intended purpose
3. A good way to make the parkours slightly easier but still weed out troublemakers is by making them yellow maps, but long ones. I'll go into a bit more detail:
When I did two different maps ( Breaking Free and Rock Sport), I found the first one harder, even though it was an easier difficulty. The reason? Because of the overall length of the maps, not how difficult it was ranked.
4. Although it would be a good idea to have 3 different paths for Parkour, Maze and Puzzle, the problem with doing that is they could easily breeze through it if they were good enough, defeating the whole purpose.
Think of it like a maths test; if the person is bad at it but the test is only on geometry, if they were excellent in the area, I'm not testing their overall ability, I'm just doing one field. Another purpose I feel for HC is to be good at everything, but you shouldn't have to be the top of the class on it.
 

Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
That is a good perspective on it manimal. It is very true that we do not intend for it to be a 95th percentile thing, but that tends to occur much more than we would like it to. Perhaps when the next rotation happens we can try doing some comparisons with the old sets to find something that does as intended.
 

Zatharel

Good Little Chemist Boy
Op
Board
Nov 5, 2013
1,867
1,219
First of all, I'd like to bring out @henniboy321's point, I tried saying something like that but couldn't figure out a way to not sound like a complete ***hole. At first this thread was getting creative but the last few posts (particularly those made by current blues) have just been attempts to manipulate the difficulty of HC to their own advantage

In any case, I personally disagree with all posts saying the current system is too hard (it is far from it, I did the 11 system and even that wasn't extremely unbelievably difficult), but I do agree that it would be nice for blues to choose how they want to play. You say hardcore is just because we don't want more greens yet that's not true, we want greens, but we want greens who will be dedicated to making their maps, we don't want qataception 2. If someone is willing to spend a few months trying to finish 10 levels, they're willing to make a decent map as well. But why leave it at that? Personally I really liked the addition of Viemort, as it (as much as you're going to hate me on this) requires intelligence and dedication (but mostly the latter), which is something you'd want a greenie to have.
 

thoraofasgard

New Fish
Mar 1, 2015
3
0
Saying 'the new map is easy because I found it easy' is like a monkey telling a fish it's east to climb trees. Just because you're good at parkour- doesn't mean others are.
I don't mind the idea of a lot of parkour, minimal checkpoints and no food. What annoys me is the difficulty of the parkour. Not everyone is good at it- so HC should be purely based on it. The jumps should be easier, but maps longer.
I mean, I've been stuck on the same damn jump since I first tried HC, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. But not being able to do that ONE jump isn't a reflection of my ability- and it shouldn't be judged as such. But it is. And it's stupid.
 

henniboy321

Chicken eater
Mod
Nov 2, 2013
458
286
If you are not able to improve on your parkour skills than you than minr might not be something for you. The most common reason why I think HC has increased difficulty over the years is simply that how more difficult hc is how more dedicated players come. In the begining there was just a need of players while now we need dedicated players. Players automaticly improve on their parkour skills as they play on a consistent base. If you don't feel like putting time into analyzing hard jumps or trying new strategies, there is a big chance you won't put the effort in being a good green as well.(I'm not trying to be rude btw, just pointing out what I think). There is no single jump a green will complain exept maybe the lucky ladders which is almost luck if you can beat it but it is just a 50% jump. But my point is that if you cannot put in the effort needed to beat that jump you might not put in the effort to be a good green.
 

Zatharel

Good Little Chemist Boy
Op
Board
Nov 5, 2013
1,867
1,219
Saying 'the new map is easy because I found it easy' is like a monkey telling a fish it's east to climb trees. Just because you're good at parkour- doesn't mean others are.
I don't mind the idea of a lot of parkour, minimal checkpoints and no food. What annoys me is the difficulty of the parkour. Not everyone is good at it- so HC should be purely based on it. The jumps should be easier, but maps longer.
I mean, I've been stuck on the same damn jump since I first tried HC, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. But not being able to do that ONE jump isn't a reflection of my ability- and it shouldn't be judged as such. But it is. And it's stupid.
No one is judging you based on one jump, in fact no one is judging you in particular at all. And excuse me? You do realize that I was a whitie/blue for over a year, right? I never said Hardcore is easy, in fact it is anything but easy, I just said that it isn't as hard as you portray it to be. Anything can be done with dedication which is exactly why the HC system exists (just look at ricky, while we all blabbered about how dual-checkpoints aren't possible he just made it possible in a few hours). I don't need to say much else, henni already said it for me.
 

thoraofasgard

New Fish
Mar 1, 2015
3
0
Zatharel- Who said I was talking about you? Plenty of other people have commented in the thread, no need to get so personal about it. My god. And yes- they are. Because with me not being able to do that one jump, I can't progress to green. And clearly everybody is judging on that, or there wouldn't be any complains. And they CLEARLY are judging me. 'If you can't put the effort in to do that jump, you won't make a good green.' Seriously? One jump says nothing about my ability in other areas. And it wouldn't be so bad, only every couple of times I miss it, I will die and have to go back and re-do it all. For one jump.

And Henni, wtf? 'Just put in more effort' like seriously? Maybe I should start saying that to every person in a wheelchair I come across. 'If you can't put in the effort enough to walk, then maybe you shouldn't be able to walk' You people are ridiculous and are the type of people who make the server bad.
And 12 people on a server at a time isn't exactly a successful server... js.
 

Ajdj

Minr Admin
Op
Oct 28, 2013
979
708
Sorry for the delayed response, I have had very little free time recently.

I have been drafting numerous versions of HC over the past few weeks, and as an exercise of thought, I'd like to encourage anyone that thinks they could do better to draft their own version of HC and send it to me. Keep in mind that it still has no influence over the final say, but I think this might be a good exercise for anyone wanting to see how I/The staff have thought about HC.

Elements (According to this thread) that are needed that are not currently in HC
-Some form of scaling difficulty.
-Some form of choice to the player for what maps they would like to play.

Element that I have personally used in drafting of the previous two versions:
-Numerous types of challenges that allow the player to experience all the types of maps MINR has available.
-Different styles of progression to give the player a sense of movement (CP each level -> Paths -> No CPs in the current version)
-A quality of maps (Not necessarily FFA+) that shows that gives the player a good sense of the quality of maps they should be striving towards once they finish HC.
-Attempting to include more Mod and Green based builds in the HC, to show existing members that new maps can make it into HC.
-Removing "anchored" maps that have been in HC for too long (Not as much of a problem now, Only remaining anchors are Aquarium / Lava Maze)
-(Applies to multi-pathing) - Making sure that multiple paths are all balanced and of close-to-equivalent difficulty. This can be difficult if we split paths by type (Parkour vs maze vs puzzle vs mix, etc)
-Not having too many of one person's maps in HC, looking at you kadd and packs =P
-Placing checkpoints where appropriate to maintain each maps integrity and difficulty.
-Including maps that have good maintainability (Future updates will not break them)

And of course, Jiga's claymaze at the very end. No exceptions =)

It's easy to say that Change X needs to happen, but at the same time you have to look at every other factor mentioned above (Among others), and make sure that you're not impacting anything else.

If you want to PM me any designs you'll make I'll try and give feedback. Hopefully this gives you all insight into all the factors I try to take into account when making HC changes, and this is why it takes so long for me to draft, propose, and complete any changes.
 

awkward_hamster

Popular Player
Mod
Jan 4, 2014
216
164
@thoraofasgard I agree with some of your points, arguing that a lack of effort is the probable cause of an inability to do one thing isn't that logical however I'd just like to pick up on your last line:
And 12 people on a server at a time isn't exactly a successful server... js.
Judging a server based on it's visits is an exceptionally bad idea. Minr has a strong, time-tested community that far supersedes that of many 'minigame hub' servers with 100+ users online (most of which have no involvement in chat or the community as a whole)

While Minr may not see strength in numbers like it used to, it's community is as strong as ever and that's what makes Zero successful.

Returning to my original point and perhaps straying slightly off course(and forgive me, I'm using myself as an example), I spent two years on Minr as a blue, within which time it could be argued that I put in more 'effort' than some greens etc. in terms of helping other players and so forth. I think it's ridiculous to say that HC separates people by any other means than 'Those willing to spend time slaving over a course' and those who aren't. Just because I didn't complete HC for a long time, doesn't mean I had any less ability to engage and help other members of the community and it's important to remember that both when dealing with blues and lower members. Just because they don't have the time, does not in any way indicate a lack of effort or (as some greens and above seem to suggest) intelligence, maturity etc.
 

Jkjkelly1

The 28th Doctor.
Op
Oct 27, 2013
649
252
While I do agree agree that it can be difficult, it's also MEANT to be difficult. If we wanted to add a puzzle-route, I think we need to add more maps than a parkour route, while still including some of our easier parkours.
 

henniboy321

Chicken eater
Mod
Nov 2, 2013
458
286
Zatharel- Who said I was talking about you? Plenty of other people have commented in the thread, no need to get so personal about it. My god. And yes- they are. Because with me not being able to do that one jump, I can't progress to green. And clearly everybody is judging on that, or there wouldn't be any complains. And they CLEARLY are judging me. 'If you can't put the effort in to do that jump, you won't make a good green.' Seriously? One jump says nothing about my ability in other areas. And it wouldn't be so bad, only every couple of times I miss it, I will die and have to go back and re-do it all. For one jump.

And Henni, wtf? 'Just put in more effort' like seriously? Maybe I should start saying that to every person in a wheelchair I come across. 'If you can't put in the effort enough to walk, then maybe you shouldn't be able to walk' You people are ridiculous and are the type of people who make the server bad.
And 12 people on a server at a time isn't exactly a successful server... js.

Ok either I didn't write it properly or you misunderstood. 1st I wasn't talking about you in particular, it was just an example.2nd point: By comparing yourself to a wheelchair patient I assume you mean the ones who will never walk again, and by saying that you just said to me that you are incapable of completing hc. And that is bs, everyone can complete hc. I believe you can finish hardcore, all I'm saying is that your mentality might be wrong.
I did not mean to judge or offend you by any means, if I did that I'm sorry for that.

You can reply to this if you feel like but I won't anymore since I don't want this spamming the forums.

For everyone else, I might have gone a little off-topic so sorry for that as well.
 

awkward_hamster

Popular Player
Mod
Jan 4, 2014
216
164
Seriously though how do I delete posts. At this point I'm leaving that one as a testament to my own stupidity.
 

Srentiln

minr op since Nov 2011
Op
Oct 28, 2013
1,954
944
I was goong to delete it for you awkward, but apparently I do not have those permissions in this section.

Before this turns into a me versus them thing any more than it has already, I want to clerify some things and ask that this post is read in full before anyone else makes comment that might create an argument over opinion.

The hardcore set has always had a single purpose: to keep out griefers and others who would only work to ruin the community without having to resort to a whitelist. This has been accomished by making the HC set difficult and time consuming. Since Aj and yeroc took over the HC set after we lost our previous course op, they have implimented several new things that make it more friendly to the dedicated player who has a hard time with some of the courses (such as the three paths and the loopback to choose a different one). Despite their efforts, there will always be times when a maze they chose isn't as good of a fit as they initially thought. This is a big reason as to why courses are rotated in and out besides working to prevent effective walkthroughs to bypass the challenge of the courses.

A person's inability to pass a course or section of a course is NEVER an indication of their dedication or what mind of community member they are. Take me for example, I am terrible at parkour. If I were to try to get green with the post-sprint HC sets, I would be in the same boat as forgot. As someone who has staffed online communities for several years (and yes, I am bringing that up again) I can tell you right now that some of the most dedicated people are the ones who have the most struggle. They are the ones who value the accomplishment most and who are willing to lend a hand because of it.

We will never seperate HC into strings of a single type of challenge. This would only serve to allow walkthroughs of the maze path and we would see more problems than benefits.

And finally, the traffic of the server at the times you visit it are no reflection of the value of the server as a whole. As mentioned, minigams servers and youruber fan servers see traffic out the wazoo. I can tell you from first hand experience that most of the time on these servers you will end up turning off chat or even leaving permanently. They are understaffed, "staffed" by people who donated a certain amount, or staffed by players who play favorites. While I cannot say that the first is not true of zero at all hours of the day, all staff members are chosen for what they do to better the community. If they end up abusing their role or harming the community, they lose their position. The greens of the community have all gone through an itteration of the hardcore set. Everyone has seen their share of challenges that seem unduely challenging at the time. Some choose to leave after a while having completed that challenge. Those that stay bring new ideas and new ways of challenging others to the server. Overall, the community is a very friendly place. We get mad at eachother from time to time, but we get over it. This community is our minecraft family.

Now, this post is a bit longer than I intendid, but I feel it is necessary. As an ending thought, don't assume that just because one person can do something, it means another person can. There are many factors in both technology and biology that can hold a person up.
 

magicdem0n11

Peon
Greenie
Dec 18, 2013
85
43
I always felt like being green is somthing you needed to earn after months of perseverence, and I believe if HC was made much easier, it'd lose that effect of triumph (if you see what I mean). I agree with many points made here, but really, is anything impossible? Surely it's all possible, you just need to work at it lots :)

Don't get me wrong, it's not easy, I nearly gave up many many times, and I complained... A lot... But people encouraged me through, and the feeling I got when I'd finished, and the feeling I still have when i see my name being green is amazing :)

So, in my opinion. HC shouldn't be changed too much, but I guess I understand why it could be
(Idk if this is all relevent but I thought I may as well voice my opinion :D )
 

MeisterXehanort

The best user.
Greenie
Oct 27, 2013
1,039
462
Fungus is actually okay imo, it really isn't that hard.

The Maze/Puzzle Path is interesting and it's definatly a cool concept.
 
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